Las Vegas is not Disneyland, Part 1

[reno]

Las Vegas, the former Mecca of sportsbetting, was recently described by Oddswiz as "Disneyland." In reality, such a euphemistic term is inaccurate. A more appropriate term would be "toilet bowl."

To realize that Las Vegas has become a "toilet bowl" for sportsbetting, one need look no further than the phone wagering situation in this city. The paltry limits that big-name sportsbooks now take is downright embarrasing. The Stardust, the almighty home of the opening line, takes one dime on baseball sides and two stinking dollars on totals. Even though the sportsbook opens at 8:00 A:M, they don't even allow phone wagering til 9:30! The Horseshoe, which up until late last baseball season took 5 dimes on sides and two dimes on totals, now takes two dime on sides over the phone and, get this, one measley dollar on totals. Limits were cut when old man Binion, who owned the joint, was knocked off. (Rumor has it that disgruntled players are trying to resurrect him from the grave just to get the old limits back.) The Hilton takes two dimes on sides and a nickel on totals, as does the Excalibur. Barbary Coast takes a dime on sides and either two or three dollars on totals. The Mirage truly is a mirage as far as phone wagering goes. Their computerized phone wagering system allows bettors to lay up to $1,000 on favorites. In other words, if the Yankees are a -250 favorite, your bet limit is $1,000 to win $400. With this in mind, I have taken Steve Wynne off my Christmas card mailing list. Last, and certainly least, is Leroy's, which is owned by ex-dentist Vic Salerno. Vic, who is now a multimillionaire, used to own and operate a run-down joint called Leroy's in downtown Vegas. Then, he teamed up with Michael Roxborough to computerize the sportsbetting industry and, presto!, he became rich, and dozens of sportsbooks throughout Nevada are now hooked up to his Leroy's computer line. In appreciation for his success, Vic now allows phone wager limits of $500 on sides and $200 on totals. But wait, that is not all. Vic, since he is no longer practicing, will be glad to recommend, free of charge, another dentist for you--the same one, I believe, who works on Leon Spinks. Yes, Vic is all heart. That is it for phone wagering in this Whore city in the middle of the desert.

Back in the 80s, when I lived in Vegas, the Stardust, Hilton, Churchill Downs and Little Caesars, which went defunct after owner Gene Mayday died, all took 5 dimes on sides over the phone. With inflation, that would be comparable to 10 dimes now.

What has happened to this town? I have my theories and will discuss them in a subsequent post. For those of you familiar with the Vegas scene, what is your take on the demise of sportsbetting there?

[MAXIMUM VALUE]

Nice post Reno.

Can you shed some light on the nevada gaming comission?

I heard that they are trying to stop Beards and runners by having them show ID and fill out forms that are also sent to the IRS.

Thanks
MV

[oddswiz]

What has happened to the town,is that sportsbetting has become corporate.Instead of allowing bookmakers to be bookmakers,they must now answer to the suits.They don't want anything to do with sharp players and pro's.

Players need to remember this,the next time they want to criticize an offshore shop becuse they cut their limits or similar.

[wintermute]

Reno

I really enjoy your posts. You should write a book on your experiences. I'd buy a copy.

'mute

[BillS]

I've always just assumed that Vegas was the place where the "real" bookmakers operated. And that places like the stardust were more likely to cater to wise bettors and less likely to cut them off. Conversly, i've always assumed the opposite of offshore books. Example, we're always getting posts about how intertops is cutting off winners. Maybe this is an extreme example but is this how it works in the offshore betting industry?

Oddswiz says that vegas has gone corporate. Does anyone think this will start a trend of real bookmakers moving offshore instead of competing in vegas where higher limits than the next guy could get them killed by wise action? I admit this is probably a foolish notion since all Offshore books are in it to bleed as many uninformed bettors dry as they can.

I hope somebody really experienced can answer this question as it is my most important. Who are the best "real" bookmakers out there? I've read posts in here before where somebody would say something like "Victor Chandler is the best with his high maximums and taking action etc." then before the post is dry somebody else would say " then why was I cut off".

Who are the best?

note: I am not trying to single out Intertops or victor chandler but those were examples that came to mind.

[skeptic]

Vegas has the books still there because the casino across the street has one. They don't want the high rolling craps player who wants to bet the fight or a game to have to walk across the street to do it. It's kind of like nuclear weapons, if they could all simultaneously agree to get rid of them they would; and put in slot machines. Less labor costs, more consistent hold.

In the meantime, Vegas sports book director is one of the most thankless jobs out there. Between the suits upstairs checking the profit numbers hourly, and the gaming comission passing rediculous rules, it is no wonder that last year was the first in a long time that the handle wet down in Vegas.

Most of the offshores affiliated with this site have sports betting as their primary business or their original business. While some places cut limits, there are some that do it right. What you don't read hear necessarily are those books that cut limits within reason. I oresume this is because either people like to keep it to themselves or it's just human nature to complain more than praise.

I think someone on this forum said it best about Intertops, "Big time marketing, small time book," at least when it comes to American sports.

Do a search on Reno's posts, look at his recent sports book reviews 1-5. They are all worth reading.

[ShiftySheik]

BillS, The best real bookmakers out there are the ones on Don Best. They all have high limits and don't chase anyone. Books like Skybook and CRIS could be compared to the Stardust and Horseshoe of the 1980's.

[Hartley]

I remember once on Roxy's site (when he used to answer questions there), someone asked him whether they could get comps in Vegas for sportsbetting. And Roxy's response was "no, because it is a loss leader".

Apparently, with the exception of NFL football, the books lose money on most sports like baseball and basketball and really get clobbered on auto racing, tennis and any other non-traditional sports they offer. NFL is a different story and the lines are usually fairly balanced with points spread moves, which is why the limits are so much higher than other sports.

In Vegas they just chalk up the other sports as a loss leader, figuring that it's a cost of doing business which will be easily offset by the casino games, horse racing, hotel rooms etc.

I'll see if I can still find a copy of that letter to him. It was amazing some of the things he revealed on the site.

As for Leroy's, you'll notice Roxy promotes it like crazy. Because they run the pari-mutuel system of betting via. Mega$ports, there is no risk to the book (and Roxy gets his cut). They won't make a lot of money but because the odds are decided the same way as it is in horseracing, the book is guaranteed a profit. Hence the "conflict of interest" Roxy was concerned about which stopped him from betting is no longer a concern. He sets the opening odds at his book, but the odds are irrelevant as everything is pari-mutuel and the bettors decide the final odds.

[Vinny]

Reno, I disagree with you wholeheartedly.

Yes Vegas is no longer, but things change, I will lay -2000 that you are over 50. I too remember Santa Anita Sports Book and the other joints. But computer technology and information has changed all that and evened the playing field. All Vegas has done, is being smart, taking a high percent from the tourist on the sucker bets and letting the wise guys go elsewhere.

Really, if you owned a store would you give it away or try to maximize profits.

For anybody to just take high limits and cater to wiseguys just to be the old Vegas would be absolutely insane. People are not in business to carry on traditions, they are in business to make money. That is what Capitalism is all about.

I too am sorry things change, but time waits for no man or book

[Unregistered]

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