A word of encouragement to all

[Never_Lose]

Hello to All,

I think it is time for the offshore players to stand up and offer a bit
of trust and comprehension towards the books that have been so good for us in the past years and are working very hard to try to cope with the present situation.


It is of my principal to offer respect and trust to someone who does something good for me. When I make a deposit and receive a whooping 20% or even just a 10% bonus - I find that is a very very nice gift. Of course when someone runs away like Charlie of Aces gold their is not much one can do but be very deceived and feel completely un respected. But belive me, Aces gold is really an exception, and not the rule (I did lose at Aces gold).

All the serious bookkeepers have rapidly acknowledged that if they run away they are really going to hurt the industry, most operations are willing to fight to stay alive and keep a certain confidence in the market, I'm sure they would appreciate our comprehension towards this matter.

If you have always lost, and never really made any money by betting offshore, then you are not in the same boat as me and I can understand your concern, and to a certain point you're desire not to play offshore anymore.

But if you have done reasonably well, have received plenty of bonuses and bet many real good games with a better line than the traditional Vegas book, then you have to recognize the value of offshore and it's superior return.

Of course, like all players, I reacted to the aces gold situation, I
requested 5 pay outs on February 17, three of them where processed right away (www.planetpinnacle.com for 10 and www.yabet.com for 2.5 and www.betmega.com for 2.5).

I was really surprised to see Rick from www.betallworld.com go out of his way to get me my money, he was willing to western-union me the 5 I was asking for right away, when finally he got the neteller straitened out and approved my request in the next few hours, thanks again Rick.

I waited a few days to request more from www.betmega.com because I knew they where moving. Then I really saw that Pamela had a big heart and really wanted to keep all her players happy, she accommodated me very well, approving part of my pay out right away and the balance two days later, and she did all this without me having to call back and ask what was going on, thanks again.


I also requested comparable amount from www.sportsinteraction.com and it came in fine. I also want to thank David from www.betcascade.com for the great offer he made to all aces gold customers, www.betroyal.com has also accommodated me very well with an aces gold offer that I used. I also want to thank Eddie from www.alladinsgold.com who stood up and cashed in some of his personal savings to honor a low 5 figure pay out for me (requested mid January and received 10 days later)

And to top it off, Spiro from www.thegreek.com came up with a very generous offer to save most of camelots ship, thanks also to Mark for working on this deal.

And as early as today I requested funds from www.direcbet.com (1300 out of my 4865 by neteller) and also www.sportsinteraction.com (3860 out of my 10940 by paypal) and everything is their. So things are not so bad.

Yes, I'm still being slow payed by a few that don't figure in my post, but they are all trying and I feel I will get most of what I asked for. Please try to be a bit flexible, ask for a bit less and be patient, most of the players AND bookkeepers want to keep a good image of the industry, we need the new players, that's where the expansion is and that's where our future lies.

Good luck to all, and thanks again to all the sports books for their
efforts in surviving this difficult crisis. They have given us great
value, I think it's time we honor that and give them their chance, I
want this industry to survive and come out stronger.

Never_Lose (ai6qzz4h7@hotmail.com)

[bgeorgia]

Amen!...i think.

bg

[Jeff]

Now this is a refreshing post!

Well said Never_Lose.......

Just to remind everyone, Never Lose is the guy who was also stiffed by Underdog7.

Excellent attitude.

Having said that, I can still understand and respect that many others don't share the same feelings. It's a matter of each individuals circumstances.

I still like the industry the way it is right now. There is much more opportunity now than if the bigger books force the smaller books to go under......if that happens, there may be 5-10 books, with very little opportunity........probably 20 cent baseball lines across the board.......maybe even 6/5 on straight bets in football and hoops. No thanks!

[sportshobby]

OK, I admit I don't share this optimistic attitude. If I played on credit with a shop and they went under, then I would write it off and go on down the road. But when I POST UP cash with a reputable shop in a country that I thought had goverment-"regulated" licensing, then I don't expect to lose my money. If it happens, then not only does this sportsbook lose credibility, but the whole concept of postup and regulation is down the toilet.

In a nutshell - government licensing and regulation in places like Antigua and Curacao means absolutely NOTHING. Forget about all the hype that you read, especially on the sportsbooks' websites and printed advertisements. There is no regulation, period.

And we've got way, way too many sportsbooks with unnamed owners. If they're U.S. citizens, they have a real reason to remain unnamed. but unfortunately for the players, this anonymous situation allows them to go bust and stiff players, and open up another sportsbook across the street the next day.

This is really, really bad times for offshore sportsbook players. When friends ask me about places to play, I just tell them to keep their money.

[hiptwo]

never_ lose, what a crock of shit!! big ******* deal you got your money, not all players have that much out there. imo it should not make any difference if you got 10,000 or 100 at the book. if they steal my 100 they will damn sure steal your 10,000. no, no, if your in the circle you have nothing to worry about. i really try and keep low key but your statement about trust and comprehension for the book is just beyond me. i send my money, i bet, i lose, the fucking book gets my money!! i bet, i win, the book KEEPS my money. you want to talk about trust? would you trust underdog7? no i don't think so either. i used to have at one time or another 3 off-shore and 2 locals well now i have 0 off-shore and 2 locals. of coarse iam not as good as you and never had to ask for a payout. i at least know where i can find my local!! so i guess your motto shoul be "if its good for ME fuck everyone else!!

[Jeff]

Hiptwo, you missed his point. He's not jumping for joy and doing cartwheels.

Furthermore he said he understands completely that not everyone is in his shoes.

His post is directed more towards those that ARE in his shoes.

He's done well by taking advantage of:

reduced juice

20% bonuses

free half points

buying on and off 3 for 10 cents

reload bonuses

off lines

no juice

7/1 3 team parlays

money back on his losses

and so on and so on.

To him it's no different than the market. Look at the ride people had in the market over the last few years. Then the bottom fell out this year. People who have been in the market the entire time aren't happy of course, but thay aren't as pissed as those that got in just before the fall.

It all depends on each individuals own experience and situation.

[underdog]

Good for Neverlose. Apparently he is in the 5% that win longterm.

For the other 95% that are already losing the recent stiff jobs are hard to swallow. It will only get worse over the next few weeks with more books going under. Neverlose will be in a very very small minority that will be able to look at it all in a positive light.

[Never_Lose]

Thanks Jeff,

You are right, I have taken advantage of every single item you enumerated (except maybe the free 1/2 - have not used those promos yet). But is it not fair to say that almost ALL offshore players have too, to me that's the major difference between the offshore industry and the regular vegas industry.

However I've always tried to be reasonable and respectable, not pull out all my balance on day 30, If I win a lot don't ask for more than half of my balance, ect...

In fact, except in one case (Australian book - that gave no bonuses or incentives) I never asked for my total balance at any book.

To underdog and hiptwo, I understand your position, and agree 100% that a book has no right to run away, I had my part of deception/depression and questionning after the aces gold case (hit for 5.8) - I thought of all thoses great evenings I had, proud of the outcome of things, and saw all that go down the drain in one day. It's a tuff time, and nothing is guaranteed, but for the moment I try to hang on and hope the books will try hard too.

[brink]

Do the 5% who win, win more then the 95% who lose? Doesn't seem to balanced. If 95% are losing, how are the books losing too?

[Jeff]

Brink,

It's been said that a very high perventage if players who post up with a sportsbook NEVER cash out. They go bust. These aren't just blank statements. This info has come right from sportsbook owners themselves.

The percentages would differ from book to book, but I supposed it's nothing like 95% losers and 5% winners anymore.

The players are getting smarter I think.

More importantly, even the high percentage that lose LONG TERM can go on hot streaks. If they go on a hot streak the same time as the winners, then basically ALL of the books players are winning, and that's enough to hurt any book that's not well funded.........

[PerpetualCzech]

Thanks to Never_Lose for sharing his personal views regarding the offshore gambling industry. I would like to offer mine:

Never_Lose, I think you are giving way too much slack to the sportsbooks regarding your level of tolerance to their payout practices. Money management is the core of a sportsbook's business; at the highest level it is basically the only product that they are offering. I cannot stress this enough. The only reason I am coming to them as a client is for them to take my money, hold it in trust and pay it back to me whenever I ask for it.

Keeping this in mind, for a sportsbook to be in a slow pay situation the same for me as if I would walk into a McDonald's, order a hamburger and be told they don't have any today. Serving food is the basis for McDonald's existence, just as money management is the basis for a sportsbook's existence.

Maybe a better analogy would be a finacial institution. Imagine you went to your stock broker to sell some stock and s/he told you that they have temporarily misplaced it and you would have to wait a few days until they find it. It would be an outrage.

What adds to the sensitivity of the issue is that it is money which is the commodity at stake. If you go to McDonald's and they don't have hambugers, all you've lost is a little time and you just laugh at them and walk out. Even if money management weren't the core of the business then not being paid can still be grounds for not patronizing a company. For example, if you went to return a product to a department store that has a money-back policy and they told you they didn't have money today, please come back tomorrow, I doubt you would ever set foot in the place again (once you got your money, that is)

And it's not as if it's that difficult a process to manage. You add up your customer balances, you add up the money in your bank account and if the former is equal or greater than the latter you announce that you cannot accept bets until the situation changes. If your overhead is too much that you don't have enough money to run the business then too bad, you can't start a company. Welcome to the way it works in the real business world.

I really don't think that these analogies are all that farfetched. If you just take a step back to approach the offshore sportsbooks with the same mindset as you would any other company you are used to dealing with I think you would see that there has to be a really extreme reason a sportsbook would have to give you if they are slow to pay you. Now I understand that competition has something to do with it ... if all companies had problems paying out then you would have to weigh the risk of not getting paid versus your need of being able to bet on sports online.

But we have a choice. The industry is now old enough that we know there are many sportsbooks out there that have a perfect record of paying out winnings promptly. It's my personal view that if you ever hear of a company that has not paid a player money right away without a very good explanation then you should never ever do business with them.

[chestrockwells]

I agree Perpetual. The books are not offering promos etc out of the goodness of their heart. Sure once in a while there are exceptions but by and large its business. I'm sorry but I can't relate to the attitude of somehow "being thankful" for the opportunity in the way that No Lose seems to be stating. Even those of us who maybe eke out a small profit long term shouldn't really feel that way. If we do win, it's because we've paid our dues one way or another. The more I'm writing, the more I just don't get it.
Ok fine, I'll grant you this..............If one had a large enough bankroll and just essentially rolled money over from book to book and took advantage of the reload bonuses and all the other stuff.......and never "gambled", then sure you'd definitely come out ahead. But so what, you don't think that's work??? Or the scalpers who stare at the screen all day long? Oh, wow, how fun.
It's worse than a number of jobs.

Look I used to play blackjack when I was just out of college. Eked out small wins semi-consistently. Not once did anyone of us that played "minor league professionally" ever go up to the casinos and say gee, thanks a lot for letting us double down on soft totals. Or we really appreciate that "early surrender option". Even with those options most people lost their ass...........and the only reason we were able to make minimum wage was because we paid the price and paid our dues. It's the same here. And no one came up to us and said hand over your last 3 months win cause we're suddenly insolvent!

[Never_Lose]

Hello Perpetual and Chestrockwells,

I agree that in the ideal world one should not have to say thanks to all that have just honored and done what they were suppose to do.

But I really think this is a difficult period for some books, and I feel that a 20% bonus is an extremly good return and worth a good thanks. I'm also saying thank you to the books who are most likely losing money, but still keeping their name up because they want to pass throught this difficult period.

On another subject, I would just like to report that at the time of my original posting I was still expecting money from www.gcsports.com, once my post came out I was contacted by Mike from Grand Central who offered to give me a status on my payout if I happened to have an account with them and was waiting. At that time I was waiting for 4250.00 from them, I offered Mike to cut the amount in half (matter of holding up to what I post), he gladly accepted and promissed me my money for wednesday march 13, I received it today, thanks Mike.

Happy 64 to all,

NL

[PerpetualCzech]

The only way sportsbooks are going to start managing their money properly is if they know that their customers will not tolerate their unethical business practices. If a sportsbook sees that customers will still come back to them even after it is well known that they dipped into their postup money to pay for losses, then they will be more likely to do it again.

Once again, money management is basically the only service that a sportsbook has to offer to its clients! What possible reason is there left to be a client of one that is not capable (or willing) to do even this one thing right?