AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS COME...ZERO TOLERANCE FOR CHEATS

[REALITY]

A FRIEND OF MINE WHO HAS A BIG POST UP SHOP E-MAILED ME TODAY AFTER READING THE REALITY THREAD,I THOUGHT I HEARD IT ALL.

HE TOLD ME TWO YEARS AGO HE ADAPTED A ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY WHEN DEALING WITH CHEATS PLAYING ON THE INTERNET WHEN THEY FOUND FOR WHATEVER REASON AN EVENT THAT WASN'T CLOSED AND PLACED A BET AFTER AN EVENT WAS DECIDED.

HE SIEZED THE FUNDS IN THE ACCOUNT AND DONATED THEM TO A LOCAL CHARITY IN THE NAME OF THE ACCOUNT HOLDER.

HE MAILED ALL CHEATING ACCOUNT HOLDERS THEIR RECEIPTS.

HE CLOSED 5 ACCOUNTS TWO YEARS AGO AND NEVER HAD TO CLOSE ANOTHER ACCOUNT AGAIN.

ZERO TOLERANCE FOR CHEATS.

AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS COME...

REALITY

[Hartley]

Reality, I don't necessarily disagree but you have to make sure that the person was indeed trying to cheat.

I recall a couple of years ago a sportsbook had a line up on a baseball game that was scheduled to go at 4 p.m. They had the line to close at 4 p.m. and I bet it honestly thinking the game was going at 4 p.m. It turned out however, that the game was pushed back to 1:00 because the t.v. stations asked them to for their audience.

Anyways, I flipped on the tv expecting to see the game and instead saw a different show. So I turned on CNN Headline News and sure enough there was the final score which I won.

I immediately called the sportsbook and informed them of the error and assured them that it was an honest mistake. They refunded the bet stake and gave me a bonus for saving them money from real cheats who pounded the game knowing the result.

Again, it's not a bad idea provided the books can be sure that the "cheaters" were intentional in their actions.

[REALITY]

HARTLEY,

ANY WAGER PLACED AFTER AN EVENT BEGINS IS CONSIDERED AN ILLEGITIMATE WAGER AND THEREFORE NO WAGER AND THE BET IS PUSHED AND YOUR FUNDS RETURNED.

IN THE CASE OF A TIME CHANGE YOU HAVE TO BE LENIENT BECAUSE OF THE SITUATION.

IF I KNEW THE CUSTOMER PERSONALLY I MIGHT EVEN PAY HIM.

A NATIONALLY TELEVISED GAME WITH 12 WINNING PROP BETS ALL PLACED AFTER 9:07 P.M.E.S.T.AND PLACED AS EACH PROP IS DECIDED?

AS MY MAN BOB DYLAN SEZ,"YOU DON'T NEED A WEATHERMAN TO KNOW WHICH WAY THE WIND BLOWS".

REALITY

[rama]

This works both ways. I placed a wager a Olympic tennis event this past summer. There was a listed time and I placed it before that time, but as it turns out the match was almost over and not in my favor. I realized this when I checked the 2000 summer olympic website and noticed the match was 2 games away from concluding. I went back to the sportsbook and the tennis match was still being offered. I could have pounded everything I had into that match, but decided against it. Ultimately, I didn't do anything and accepted my loss. I had researched and had wagered on player x and decided to accept my results even if they were immediate.

[sportshobby]

I wish Reality would realize that there are plenty of opportunities for the sportsbooks to take advantage of these same situations. Yes, some books will and do. And unsuspecting players can get burned just like the books can.

A few posted rules on such instances would really help sort things out.

It may seem like I'm defending the cheats, but that's not so. I'm just saying that the solution to this problem has to go beyond just throwing out and blacklisting any player that appears to have tried to cheat a book.

In the first category are the really obvious intentional cheats, such as is described in the "I thought I'd seen it all" thread. Go ahead and hang these guys up however you want.

In the second category are the wagers that appear to be taking advantage of an error in odds or event start time. Since you can't be sure what was the player's intent, it is important to handle the matter in a fair way. POST THE RULES! Post how much difference constitutes a line error. Post what the book will do to try and contact the player. Post how late the wager can be cancelled (hopefully before it begins).

Then there is the third category, books that use this as an excuse not to pay a wager. That can be corrected by following the advice about about posting the rules.


[This message has been edited by sportshobby (edited 11-21-2000).]

[alec]

REALITY,

Is it a joke or such an owner really exists?

If the story you told is a true one it just serves as an illustration that a bettor has no rights whatsoever after he sent his money to an offshore book.

[sportshobby]

Alec, I agree with you. I'd like to know exactly which book has such an owner. Unless we've not heard the whole story, I don't think I want to be associated with this book.

What's missing is how this owner had undisputable proof that the player was intentionally betting after (he knew) the event had started.

Without this absolute proof, the owner simply served as his own judge, jury, and court and confiscatd the player's money.

[wintermute]

REALITY

This is all just a little one-sided don't you think? The book can protect themselves fairly well against the bettor - after all they have his money. If they don't like what the bettor did they can close his account and keep all or some of the money in the account. As long as they have sufficient justification for what they did they are not going to get much of an argument from the betting public.

It's the bettor who needs protection against the crooked book and who has virtually none. We have absolutely no recourse except in the court of public opinion. There is no written contract between the gambler and the sportsbook. Any book if they so desired could shut down their website, disconnect their phones and disappear into the night and most of us couldn't prove that we ever did business with them. We might be able to prove that we sent money their way but they have all the account records which could easily be falsified.

'mute

[Bookiebar]

Simple solution, stop sending your money to dodgy offshore bookmakers that have no clearly defined rules. For starters if things do go bad who are you going to call the costa rican police? Good luck..

It is fair enough cancelling somebody’s bet if they are taking advantage of an obvious error, but how the hell am I to know what an obvious error is? and even more so if I am a newbie. It ain't my job to police the lines I pay the book to do that.

Post up the rules for cancellation or honour the bets those really are the only two options, pick one and stick to it. Any sportbook doing anything else are just plain dodgy.

This is the MAJOR problem with the offshore gaming industry NO clearly defined universal laws to protect them or most importantly the customer. As sportshobby said they are their own judge, jury, and court. And if they are confiscating money... executioner.

The books need to sit down together draft up a universal code of practice, and have it administered in a non banana republic country by an independent agency.

[Frank]

You absolutely cannot have a zero tolerance policy. What if you have a player who always bets 100 a game and he bets 14 games for a buck on a college hoop saturday. What if he puts in all 14 at 12:30 EST but one of the games was a time change to 12:00 EST and he obviously didn't know about it but the system took it? Are you gonna boot him and donate his money? Each situation has to be handled completely different. In your other thread, this would be a legitimate way to handle things but every situation is different.

[Bookiebar]

Do we need to start a black list of sportsbooks that cancel wagers but do not have clearly defined rules for doing so?

I am all for cancelling bets IF and only IF the book has stated CLEARLY when and why their going to do it someplace on your site, even if it's in 3pt lawyer speak.

mmmm bit of a paradox, clear and lawyer speak..

[This message has been edited by Bookiebar (edited 11-21-2000).]

[DrunkenGoon]

A book should not cancel a bet that it has takes. Mistakes do occur and they have to protect themselves. If an obvious error has occured the book has a chance to rectify that by notifying the player as long as they do so before the start of the even. This policy should be clearly stated in the rules...

I disagree with the "charity" thing. You've sent the book your money, they have the obligation to send you your balance on request or when they decide to terminate the agreement by booting you out. Anything before that is fair game.

May all your bets be winners

[alec]

Originally posted by sportshobby:
Without this absolute proof, the owner simply served as his own judge, jury, and court and confiscatd the player's money.

The more I think about the story told by REALITY, the more outrageous it looks to me.

I absolutely agree with what sportshobby said, but I would like to generalize his statement.

Whenever there is a dispute between a sports book and a bettor the sports book's decision is the final one. At the moment a sports book is its own judge, jury, and court in EVERY dispute with a bettor.

And, in my opinion, this is the main problem.

[REALITY]

TO ALL THE ABOVE GENTLEMAN:

A BET THAT IS PLACED AFTER AN EVENT HAS STARTED IS NO BET AND THEREFORE A PUSH AND THE MONEY REFUNDED.

WHEN A NATIONALLY TELEVISED GAME GOES OFF AT 9:07 P.M.E.S.T. AND A LESS THAN HONORABLE INDIVIDUAL DISCOVERS THAT AS LONG AS HE LEAVES THE WINDOW OPEN ON A PROP HE CAN PLACE THE WAGER AS SOON AS THE EVENT IS DECIDED,YOU HAVE NO SHOT TO GET PAID.

THE STORY GETS BETTER THIS F*****G THIEF OPENS UP 12 WINDOWS AND BETS 12 PROPS.

GUESS WHAT?

HE WON THEM ALL.

I ADVISED THE COMPANY IN QUESTION TO RUN A QUERY ON HIS LAST 12 MONTHS WORK AND TO DEDUCT EVERY PAST POST PROP THEY COULD IDENTIFY.

HE HAD A 10 DIME BALANCE THEY IDENTIFIED 30 DIMES IN WINNING PAST POST PROPS!

SUFFICE IT TO SAY HIS ACCOUNT WAS CLOSED AND HIS BALANCE APPLIED TO THE THEFTS.

ANYBODY THAT HAS A PROBLEM WITH THIS IS A THIEF LIKE THIS PLAYER.

IF YOU CANT ROB ME WITH A GUN,WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU CAN ROB ME WITH A KEYBOARD AND A COMPUTER?

REALITY

[REALITY]

Originally posted by alec:
REALITY,

Is it a joke or such an owner really exists?

IT'S NO JOKE HE'S SERIOUS AS A HEART ATTACK AND ONE OF THE BEST AND LARGER BOOKS.

If the story you told is a true one it just serves as an illustration that a bettor has no rights whatsoever after he sent his money to an offshore book.

THAT IS NOT TRUE.

HONORABLE BOOKS PAY LEGITIMATE WAGERS.

PAST POST WAGERS ARE NO WAGERS AT ALL.

BETTING ON A INCORRECTLY POSTED 3 POINT NFL FAVORITE IS NO WAGER.

I JUST HAD DINNER WITH THE BEST AND PROBABLY BIGGEST B.M.IN THE BUSINESS.

DO YOU THINK HE ENTERS THE LINES ONE BY ONE?

HE CALLS OUT THE LINE AND A CLERK PUTS IT IN.

YESTERDAY THE CLERK PUT ARIZONA A 33 POINT FAV UP AS A DOG FOR 90 SECONDS!

TEN COUNT 'EM TEN SCREEN SITTERS JUMPED ALL OVER THIS.

DURING THE AFTERNOON HE WAS REVIEWING THE GAMES AND HE NOTICED THE ERROR.

HE CANCELED ALL THE WAGERS AND E-MAILED THE OFFENDERS.

DO YOU BELIEVE HALF OF THESE JERKS ACTUALLY HAD THE STONES TO CALL AND COMPLAIN THAT THEY WANTED THEIR WAGERS HONORED!

ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

REALITY