Another Reason Why Gore Will Win

[MarkDel]

Cons,

I'd really like to agree with the statement you made above. I really would because I assure you that I think less of Al Gore than you do. If I expressed my true feelings about him, Janet Reno and the Gestapo/Justice Department would be beating down my door by morning, but....

I hate to say my friend that you are still holding onto concepts of right/wrong, honesty, integrity, justice, etc...all of which have been made totally irrelevant and obsolete over the last decade in american politics. The era of Clintonism is now firmly entrenched in our culture and I do 100% believe that Gore will get away with stealing this election. People in this country have foolishly bought into the notion that the courts are above politics and they will rationalize this Florida Supreme Court ruling as legitimate, thus giving Gore and his left wing minions a free reign to walk off with the presidency.

The only chance now is that either the Supreme Court acts by Monday which is extremely unlikely, or the Florida State Legislature sends their own electors to counter what will almost certainly be Gore electors after the ludicrous hand recount this weekend. If it gets thrown into the U.S. Congress, then Bush would win barring further court intervention. But if the Florida State Legislature does intervene for Bush, the Democrats will kill the Republicans with this in the next two elections and probably claim the house and senate in 2002 and the White House in 2004.

Personally, I didn't vote for either of these guys, but the last month has affirmed my past fears of the two parties were 100% on target, which is that the Republican Party is pretty much a joke that shoots itself in the foot at every turn thanks to its love affair with religious right wing zealots like Jerry Falwell. And while the Republicans are a disaster, they are clearly the "good guys" when stacked up against the Democratic Party which is dominated by liars, criminals and other immoral and amoral lowlifes who have no respect for concepts like honor, dignity and freedom. At the risk of sounding very extreme, I'd say at this point, a vote for the Republicans makes you an idiot, while a vote for the Democrats makes you a traitor.

I've done some pretty bad things in my life, so if there's a hell, I'll probably be there one day, but when I get there, I have no doubt that Bill Clinton and Al Gore will be working in upper management by the time I get there!!!!!!

PS--Cons, I wish I still had your faith, but in the immortal words of Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction, "You can walk with the shepherd if you wan't, but my eyes are wide open."

[MadameX]

mark,
I agreed with 90% of what you said to con with a couple of exceptions. You said:

"But if the Florida State Legislature does intervene for Bush, the Democrats will kill the Republicans with this in the next two elections and probably claim the house and senate in 2002 and the White House in 2004."

I don't know about 2004 White House (please, if there is a God in heaven, don't let it be Hillary), but it is traditional that the party in power loses in the off year elections so that would hold for whichever man wins regardless of Florida legislative actions.

The other thing is that there is absolutely no way the US Supremes will let this madness from the Florida bench stand.

[Hartley]

Well I'm not American but it seems to me that as long as the person who gets the most votes wins then it is best for the country regardless of how those votes are counted. If Floridians wanted Gore to win then why should it go to Bush? If the manual recounts show the true intent of the voters then why should they not be counted?

But this brings up a bigger issue. If the U.S. Supreme Court overturns the Florida Supreme Court then essentially what has happened is that all the court orders have followed party lines (since the predominantly democratic judges in Florida ruled in favor of Gore and the predominantly Republican judges in the USSC ruled in favor of Bush). Furthermore the federal government has stepped into the election process which is a state issue by law.

Consequently, I think you could see a lot of tension between the feds and the states over who has what powers.

Plus there's another issue which nobody mentioned but could be a big problem. Right now Jesse Jackson and others are claiming that the African Americans were denied their rights in the election for various reasons including intimidation. 93% of Blacks voted for Gore. If Gore actually is shown to have more votes but Bush is given the white house (a man who refused to stay a couple of executions of black men which led to some civil disobedience), could this cause some civil unrest in the U.S. among racial lines?

Bottom line - a huge mess. But I still hope Gore wins as I think he would be a better president than Gore for both the U.S. and its neighbors.

[Jeff K]

MadameX... Just like a Rep twisting the facts to justify the ends. First, the networks called Florida for Gore at 8:30, and the polls closed in the panhandle at 9. Are you going to tell me that thousands of Bush voters were sitting at home watching TV 1/2 hour before the polls closed, or are you trying to tell me thousands of Rep's were at the polls and said let's go home because Gore was declared the winner. Who cares about the rest of the slate. If that's the case, they don't deserve to vote. What a bogus excuse. Second, even if I bought your story, they CHOSE not to vote, and they have nobody to blame but themselves. As far as I'm concerned, you're grabbing at straws when you blame the networks for lost votes in the panhandle. This just never happened!!!

[JC]

I don't think the Supreme Court will overturn the Florida Supreme Court on this one. They skirted around it last time and they had a better shot on that than this one.

The US Supreme Court basically told the FL court they better stick to the statutes from here forward and not rely on the constitution. They did. The legislature gives the courts broad discretion in election "contests" to remedy matters in a "just" manner. The statute states that in order to have a contest the results just need to be "in doubt." Judge Sauls was using a higher standard claiming that they needed to show that there was "a probablity of a change in the outcome." The Fl Supreme court here sticks to the Fl legislature's own statute here and it will be a stretch for the US Supreme Court to throw it out. They also point out that the only resolve the doubt is to examine the ballots.

[Jeff K]

MarkDel... I'm not a Gore supporter, but just think he's the lesser of the two losers. In fact, the last time I voted, I voted for Nixon (voted against him the time before). I did however place a small bet on Gore, but I call things like I see them.

I do believe Bush is a LOSER, big time. Just before the election, PBS aired a "Frontline" about the lives of both Bush and Gore. It showed that Bush never earned a dollar in his life, and only became Gov of Texas because he made a backroom deal with the leader of the Dem party in Texas. One time they were having a big fight over some legislation, and Bush went over and kissed him. In other words, he's a not only a loser, but a kissas*. His oil business was ready to go under, but some of his father's friends bailed him out so he didn't have to declare bankruptcy. He was a drunk most of his life, and now he's a born again christian. Just what we need for President.

Another thing. The Rep's are trying to act like Gore is stealing the election. SURE! The man with the most votes is stealing the election. Who is running to the USSC to try and stop the recount? These are the same people who tout "States Rights". What a bunch of phonies. The Rep's were hollering for term limits a few years back, but now that they have control of Congress, they never heard of term limits. "My Rights" is more like it.

P.S. Of all the candidates, I thought Bradley was the best choice.


[This message has been edited by Jeff K (edited 12-09-2000).]

[Cons]

Well of course the man with the most votes should win. After all, that's what this is all about...

Gore has claimed that the 'will of the people' is the most important thing. Unfortunately, this low-life only seems to think so when it comes to his own supporters.

Isn't he the one who tried every trick in the book to sabotage the votes of American citizens, hoping to invalidate thousands of votes votes by those living abroad and military personnel? I guess for this low-life the 'will of the people' was no longer an issue...

The whole recount issue is just a load of BS to rig a few votes here and there. If we really want to count all the votes, then why not count those in Republican counties?

The same goes with analyzing the votes by hand. It's just another way of giving Gore 'extra' votes from invalid ballots.

In the end I still can't see this turning around at this point, and the only hope Gore has is to prolong the process to create havoc when Florida has to choose its electors.

[Cons]

BTW, what odds would be appropriate at this point in time?

[Jeff K]

Cons... Wake up. The FSC just ordered a recount in all the counties with undervotes. This includes Rep counties.

[MadameX]

Jeff,
I venture to say that Rep's dont have a corner on the "twisting the facts to justify the ends." You state: "First, the networks called Florida for Gore at 8:30,..." Just as a point of information, they called the election at 6:12. The polls closed at 7. I do agree with you that people that did not vote have no one to blame but themselves, but the early, incorrect call did have an effect on turnout in that area. In an election that is this close, a few hundred votes could have been critical. That was the thrust of my remark and even a Dem with his head in the sand can understand that I bet.
Hartley, you say "If the manual recounts show the true intent of the voters then why should they not be counted?" Did you not watch the spectacle that took place down here just days ago when the "intent" of Broward votes were being devined by the democratic canvassing board? Come on, get real - that was the most biased, embarassing fiasco this country has been through in any election I have ever witnessed.
You then go on to say:"...that all the court orders have followed party lines (since the predominantly democratic judges in Florida ruled in favor of Gore and the predominantly Republican judges in the USSC ruled in favor of Bush)." Once again, just inaccurate. The democratic judge in Leon just ruled yesterday in favor of the Bush petition. We must trust our courts to do the right things. And when they don't, and run wild like the Florida Supremes did yesterday, there are remedies. You go on: "Furthermore the federal government has stepped into the election process which is a state issue by law." The only reason that the federal court would step in is when there has been a violation of federal law. In this particular case, the US Supremes took the arguments because the US Constitution says that the election laws can not be changed after the election takes place to effect a particular outcome. That is exactly what the Florida court did. Fed law takes precedence over state law in this issue.
Jeff, I just couldn't leave you out of my post - there is plenty of hypocrisy to go around, so let's have a little honesty here! I seem to recall many times hearing Gore and his reps saying how he wants every vote counted. Then I recall him sending his lawyers to court asking that the military votes be disallowed. You will be happy to learn that the court ruled yesterday those votes will now be counted.
Have a nice weekend everyone!

[MadameX]

One more note concernng the Florida Supremes...in yesterday's decision, the chief justice, Wells, sided with the minority!! He himself stated in his written opinion that he fully expects a swift overturning of this decision by the US Supremes. I would not be surprised to see that happen by the time the weekend is over.

[Jeff K]

MadameX... What election were you watching??? Your remarks don't even deserve a response. If you ever need an out, give me a call. I could use some easy money.

[MadameX]

Good try, Jeff, but it's obvious that when the truth doesn't fit your misconceptions, you can't take it. Not very impressive, but typical.
p.s. Don't sit by your phone.

[Cons]

Can we look at the odds for a moment. Locally, I cang et Bush at -200 and Gore at +150. Any value here?

[MadameX]

Con, good point! I see that Jeff K is looking for some easy money and will probably want to find out more when he reads your post!