Another Reason Why Gore Will Win

[MarkDel]

Will one or all of the Democratic apologists come in here and justify this. What ever happened to the "will of the people"??? I guess it doesn't extend to members of the armed forces if they continue to have the audacity to vote Republican. I'm beginning to think that the anit-american foreigners I've encountered on these boards are right about this country. When the public tolerates something like this, I'm truly ashamed to be an american...but on a gambling angle, you Gore backers will cash your tickets in about 4-6 weeks.

READ THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By BRENT KALLESTAD, Associated Press Writer

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) - More than 1,100 overseas absentee ballots were thrown out Friday as Republicans
complained of a coordinated challenge by Democrats, particularly against ballots from military personnel.

In some counties, half or nearly all of the ballots were rejected, many of them military ballots that apparently didn't
have postmarks.

Orange County, for example, rejected 117 of its 147 overseas ballots.

"The party of the man who wants to be the next
commander-in-chief is trying to throw out the votes of the men and women he will be commanding," charged Jim
Post, a Republican lawyer in Duval County, where 107 ballots were rejected.

"We had a lot of ballots with no postmarks so we had to declare them invalid," said **** Carlberg, assistant elections
supervisor in Duval County.

Overall, counties accepted nearly 1,500 overseas ballots.

Thomas Spencer, a Miami attorney for Bush, said the GOP legal team would weigh whether to sue this weekend. "One
of the problems with those ballots is it is so difficult under Florida and federal law that you almost have to be a rocket
scientist to comply," he said.

Democrats dismissed the GOP suggestions of a coordinated campaign, noting local election officials made the
decisions. "Rushing to a hasty conclusion and making partisan accusations is exactly what we don't need right now,"
Democratic National Committee spokeswoman Jenny Backus said.

Earlier this week, Mark Herron, a Tallahassee lawyer helping shepherd Democratic presidential election lawsuits
through the local courts, sent a five-page letter to Democratic attorneys throughout Florida giving them tips on how
to lodge protests against overseas ballots.

Such protests must be lodged before the ballot is taken out of the envelope. The letter focused on protesting military
ballots, which are assumed to be heavily in favor of Bush, and included a section on military postmarks.

Herron said in an interview his five-page letter "went to the folks we had in the field that were out there monitoring
absentee ballots, just like the other side was out there. Our memo was intended to express the law of the state of
Florida as we understand it and provide direction and guidance to the people who were in the field.

"I'm not the only one that did this," he added. "Everybody got the opportunity to argue their case in front of the
canvassing boards."

Republicans circulated a letter dated Friday from Navy Capt. E.M DuCom, deputy director of the military postal
service, who said military mail is required to be postmarked. But he added, "There are instances when time
constraints do not allow for proper postmarking/cancellation of the mail. The last flight may be departing the ship and
the mail has to get on it."

Ed Gillespie, a Republican strategist working for Bush in Florida, said 110 of 113 write-in ballots, mostly from
military forces, were invalidated by officials in Miami-Dade County. He said more than half were thrown out because
they had no witness or witness address listed but "the form doesn't indicate that a witness is necessary."

With all but about a few counties reporting, Bush was leading Gore by more than 700 votes, including overseas totals
and those already certified by the state, an Associated Press survey showed.

Counties have until noon Saturday to report their results to Secretary of State Katherine Harris, who will not be able
to certify the election until after the Florida Supreme Court meets Monday to hear arguments about ongoing hand
recounts in South Florida.

But the latest battle was over overseas ballots.

"There are more attorneys than there are ballots," said Bob Edwards, Chairman of the Republican Executive
Committee for Walton County, where five votes were tossed out.

More than three-quarters of Orange County's 147 overseas absentee ballots were rejected by that county's canvassing
board. Supervisor of Elections Bill Cowles said he was shocked by that number but attributes the 117 rejections to
voters failing to keep their records current.

However, Republicans handed out an affidavit from the chief postal clerk of the aircraft carrier USS John F. Kennedy
to counter Democratic challenges to envelopes without postmarks.

"It is not unusual for mail being sent by naval personnel, whether embarked on naval vessels or otherwise, not to have
a postmark," Edgardo Rodriguez said.

[Jeff K]

It's not going to make any difference, because Gore won't pick up 760 votes in the hand count. The only way Gore can win now is with a re-vote.

Now, if you want to go by the "Will of the People", Gore should have won Florida by several thousand votes. I believe 12,000 voters in PBC voted twice by accident, when they intended to vote for Gore.

[MarkDel]

Jeff,

1. All we talk about is Palm Beach County, but what about the 21,000 votes that got thrown out (for either double punches or no punches) in Duval County, a Republican stronghold where Bush got 75% of the vote??? This is never talked about, why???

2. If you don't think that after HAND RECOUNTS in Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade, that the Deomcrats aren't going to come up with over 1,000 new votes for Gore...well...not to be a jerk, but you're just being naive. By the time the hanbd recounts are done in these three counties, Gore will turn a 760 vote deficit into at least a 300 vote margin in his favor, especially now that they're allowed to count votes that have only "indented or pregnant chads."

3. If by some miracle, the Democrats in these three counties actually provide an honest count, then Gore will still go to court about the "confusing butterfly ballot" and he'll win in the Florida State Supreme Court which has six of seven Democrats on the bench...and then it's likely that the U.S. Supreme Court will not take up the case in the event of a Republican appeal. In fact, I think it was you who made this very point in another thread

[This message has been edited by MarkDel (edited 11-18-2000).]

[Jeff K]

I live in Broward county, so I see the counting going on all the local stations. Believe me, the count is honest. There's a Rep and Dem at each table checking the ballots. So far, the numbers aren't there.

I think the Court may allow the hand counts, but I don't think they'll call for a re-vote. They may not allow the pregnant ballots either. While unfortunate, I don't think the Court will act on the Butterfly ballots.

Duval: Are you saying the Rep's in Duval are dumber than PBC's Dem's.




[This message has been edited by Jeff K (edited 11-18-2000).]

[deepsouth]

Where are you finding the results of the ongoing handcounts?

[Jeff K]

I got this from the Ft. Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel.

"Gore raised the number of votes he has picked up during manual recounts in the county this week to 21 more over Republican George W. Bush. Workers have completed tallies for 90 of the county's 609 precincts."

If you project this out, Gore gains less than 150 votes in Broward. Dade will probably be less.

I don't think PBC has released any numbers.

[DOGS THAT BARK]

If I hear "The will of the people" one more time I'll puke.In this clause they ought to define will of which people.Take a look at areas in U.S.where Gore amassed most of his electorial votes.Compare maps of areas in the U.S.which lead in crime,welfare,aids,homeless,foreign residents,ect.
Identical matches.
Now look at demographics of the small business owner,the farmer,the military,all resources that have made this country what it is today.
After reviewing above in the future please define will of which people.

[Jeff K]

Statisticians from three top universities hired by the Democratic Party are estimating that manual recounts of the presidential vote in three South Florida counties should net Vice President Al Gore more than 500 additional votes -- maybe just enough to take the White House.

The one imponderable in the formula for Gore: The tally of at least 2,900 overseas absentee ballots now underway. While Gore's projected gain in the recount would be enough to overcome the 300-vote lead for George W. Bush announced by Secretary of State Katherine Harris Thursday night, no one knows whether it will prove sufficient to offset the Republican's expected advantage in the overseas vote, one expert said.

``That's the big mystery,'' said Christopher Carroll, professor of economics at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland. ``No one has a firm idea on that. It's going to be close.''

The Democrats' lawyers hired Carroll and economists Lawrence Katz of Harvard and Bruce Hansen of Wisconsin to project how many votes Gore would net in case of recounts in Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties, respectively. The lawyers used the numbers to bolster their contention that recounts should be allowed because they could change the outcome of the presidential election.

The state Supreme Court will hear arguments Monday on whether the recounts -- already underway in Broward and Palm Beach -- are valid. Miami-Dade elections officials will decide today when to begin their recount.

The economists focused only on so-called undervotes -- ballots not counted by the reading machines because individuals didn't cast votes or didn't fully puncture their cards. Assuming that the recount would include so-called ``pregnant chad'' ballots, they concluded, on the basis of voting patterns in each county, that Gore would pick up 191 more votes than Bush in Broward and 219 in Palm Beach. An earlier Herald analysis found a manual recount could boost Gore's lead in Palm Beach by as many as 1,000 votes.

Carroll estimates that in Miami-Dade Gore would net at least 126 votes, and possibly as many as 229. He said the gain could be even higher if some so-called overvotes -- where ballots are invalidated because a voter punched two holes in one race -- are added to the count. Some of those can be salvaged if the voter punched one hole for Gore and once for his running mate, Joe Lieberman, as apparently occurred in many cases.

In Broward, county Republican Party Chairman Ed Pozzuoli has argued that the recount would yield just 50 more votes for Gore.

By Friday night, with about half of Florida's 67 counties reporting their overseas ballots, the Texas governor's lead had inched up from 300 to 333 votes. In the separate recount campaign, Gore had picked up 34 votes.

[deepsouth]

DOGS THAT BARK:

I don't see it that way. Instead, the way to break it down geographically is to look where there are good universites and where there are a lot of hicks. If there's good schools (Massachusetts, New York, California), Gore wins huge. If there's pretty good schools (Illinois, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Washington), Gore wins by a smaller margin. If there aren't good schools, but are a lot of hicks, Bush wins.

In Alabama, 40% of the voters voted against having interracial marriage be legal. Which way do you think those people went on the presidential election?

[DOGS THAT BARK]

Deep South Your points are valid and noted.
Politics seems to bring out the worst in us and give us tunnel vision at times.While opinions are different the important thing is we live where we can voice them.
The best to you.

[hick]

Deepsouth's points are valid and noted ? LOL

Considering where Al Gore, Bill and Hillary Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Lyndon Johnson, George Bush Sr. and Jr. were born and raised are you so sure that all people from the south are under-educated inbred hicks ?

There are many intellectually elite people in the south, in fact, you may be one.

See if you can pass this IQ test:

Vote for President of the United States

1.BUSH --> O
2.``````````````` O <-- BUCANNON
3.GORE --> O
4.``````````````` O <--NADER


GRADE YOURSELF, IF YOU:

1. Voted for more than one candidate because there is more than 1 president.

2. Did not vote for any, because you were disgusted by all the candidates.

3. Broke your monitor by trying to punch a hole in the ballot.

4. Voted for Al Gore

Congratulations, you are now part of the intellectually elite and your vote will be counted for Al Gore.








[This message has been edited by hick (edited 11-19-2000).]

[deepsouth]

I never said everybody from the South was a hick, just that the South had a lot of hicks. I don't have a problem with calling the 40% of people who voted against interraical marriage hicks.

My sense is that dogsthatbark took my message the way it was intended. He gave geographic breakdown of the voting that wasn't very flattering to Democrats; I was pointing out that there was also a way of looking at it that wasn't too flattering to Republicans. Neither one of us should be taken seriously, IMHO.

[Jeff K]

Will the real John Rocker please stand up?

[reno]

How about a debate between John Rocker and Allen "the Answer" Iverson on the social problems facing America? I'd pay to see that.

[Ronbets]

If those 2 head cases had a debate, I'd lay 8/5 that Iverson would either be late or 'no show'.