BW Privacy Issue re: Aces Gold

[FatBoy]

I was going to post up with Aces Gold at the beginning of football season beacause of all the great reviews that they received here. For one reason or another I didn't get around to it during week #1 of nfl. Then I read Azbob's comments about the site access speed during crunchtime. I decided to post up elsewhere because of those comments.

However, they were still on my list of potentials. This issue is a VERY serious one and may be cause for them to be put on my own "do not touch" list. Since they are an advertiser here, I think someone from Aces Gold needs to come in here and address this issue.

FatBoy
Not my real name.

[Socceroo]

AZBOB - I was going to take a look through some of your posts to see if maybe you had let slip some details that might have given them a clue to who you are, but GEEEZUS, 2505 total posts, no way!! Anyhow that would be my guess on how they know you, every time that we post we give away a little bit of ourselves, Aces probably read some of your posts and thought Bingo I know that guy he's one of ours. Because you would have been commenting on one of their policies and it wouldn't take a genius to work it out (which is quite lucky really, because I do think there too many genius' working the books).

There is no way that BW would pass on our information I am pretty sure of that. They are more concerned about their sterling reputation than anything else, I would bet the farm on that. In fact I would bet your farm on that fact as well and it's probably got a lot more cows on it than mine.

The real question is, if we do let it slip and a book does find out who we are, then how worried should we be about that?? If they decide to seek some kind of retribution and keep you from working your farm or worse then I am sure that it will be mentioned in passing on this forum and I can imagine the huge stink that it would cause. It could do untold harm to a book's reputation. As long as we stick together, player power WILL prevail. So don't worry go ahead and make another two and a half thousands posts and just let 'em try it!!

Best Regards

Elvis Presley

[AcesGold Marketing]

AcesGold would like to make the following statements:

1. Privacy Issue raised by azbob

As was stated very clearly to azbob,


"you provided us your info when you signed up for an account"


That is also, as clear as we can make it.


As far as invasion of privacy is concerned, there is no issue whatsoever, we did not seek your info from BW, nor did we talk to anyone about you, your account, and your issues, we communicated with you in private as we always do with all of our customers, it was you who decided to take our communication public.

2. Slow access to AcesGold website

As was noted on numerous sites this past 4 weekends, our ISP was the reason for the slow access to our website. But as of 2:30 AM today, our ISP informed us that they have finally solved this problem. Our ISP also said that with our enormous player growth, it was quite difficult to keep up with us, where more bandwidth may not simply be the answer. We have undertaken the necessary steps to handle this growth.

3. not Big Brother.

What we don't understand is why a customer, if he is so dissatisfied with us and our service, will not agree to close his account and go on to greener pastures. Specifically a customer who simple REFUSES to work with us to resolve his connection issues, or any issues for that matter.

This is not a COLD WAR a la CHILLING EFFECT type of thing. We have corresponded with azbob several times in the past, pleading with him to give us a call and have a chit chat with our tech people, to no avail.

On the contrary, we get lots of e-mails and phone calls from our customers on a daily basis, satisfying and addressing every issue brought to our attention. However, they don't post on this board or any other boards.

BW has been a good and respectable forum with qualified and informative posts and posters, particularly handy in addressing issues between books and customers, but that good purpose fails when one party (in this case, the customer) refuses to work with the book toward a resolution.

[wolfman]

aces gold,
you still have not explained how you connected azbob post's on bw to his real name. if it is thru your own "detective" work like matching up his hometown, then say so. the silence leaves all sorts of theories wide open.

[Mad Dog]

I hate to see a great book like Sports Market/Aces Gold slammed like this. I'm not defending their actions in this situation, but to not sign up with them over this seems a little harsh.

There are so many pathetic bookmakers out there now that it's refreshing to see a book like this one who caters to all players. You'll never see 2 lines, stalling on the phone, moving on air etc. Granted there are some problems like web speed and variety of bet offers but no book is perfect. These guys are pros that treat everyone the same way and aren't gonna boot you for winning.

As far as I'm converned, keep up the good work SM/AG.

[AcesGold Marketing]

We will adress this issue once again.

azbob provided this info, quite easily at that, when he signed-up with us. His e-mail address included his handle azbob, how tough can that get? Mystery solved folks.

Again, there was no security nor privacy issue whatsoever.

Case closed.

[This message has been edited by AcesGold Marketing (edited 10-24-2000).]

[Blockhead]

Case NOT closed.....

Aces,

You mean to tell us that you took the moniker of an indiviual (azbob) who addressed a topic in this forum regarding connection problems with your book (a problem that has been expressed by more than one person), did a search of your database of "thousands" of customers, matched it up with a specific email address, and then took it upon yourself to send a personal email through cyberspace? That's pretty ballsy. What if your "matching process" had somehow gone afoul and the email was sent to the wrong person?

Try this. I, too, have an account with your book. Based upon my moniker, please send me an email. Just say anything, such as "we gotcha". I'll be waiting.

The major, and most important, point to this whole thread is: If an individual, for ANY reason, feels uncomfortable posting his/her feelings about a specific sportsbook in a public from (especially THIS one), then the player and the books will suffer a tremendous blow and the integrity of the industry as a whole will crumble. Bettorsworld is the voice of the people and I don't even want to think what the offshore environment would be without it.

[FatBoy]

Mad Dog,

I assume your talking about me with your quote;

-----------------------------------------
I hate to see a great book like Sports Market/Aces Gold slammed like this. I'm not defending their actions in this situation, but to not sign up with them over this seems a little harsh
-----------------------------------------

I don't think that I "slammed" them. I just voiced my concerns over 2 issues that are important to me.

1.) Website - I do 99.99% of my wagering over the internet, so access speed and availablity are very important to me. AzBob posted about access problems during crunchtime. There were other posts about Aces server being down. These are things I want to know about. Issues like this do effect my decision on whether or not to post up with someone.

2.) Privacy/Ethics - Forget for a minute how Aces "figured out" who AzBob really was. The fact that Aces sent Azbob the E-mail at all bothers me. They are basically telling him that he shouldn't be posting pertinent information to a watchdog site. Communication of info like this is one of the purposes of this forum. If the slowness of the server was an isolated incident to AzBob (only), as Ace's e-mail implies, why didn't Aces come to this site sooner and address that issue?

So, sorry if contemplating not signing up with them, "seems a little harsh" to you.

[Hamhog]

Maybe I am missing something here.

How was AZBob hurt by Aces actions?
I see no threat in their communications.

It appears to me that they tried to privately ask for a courtesy call before complaints are aired. Why is that so bad?

[sportshobby]

Well, I am satisfied with AcesGold's response. Matching the e-mail address on account with the posting name here didn't take too much work, and didn't involve any detective work at BW.

[azbob]

Been busy all day so just read the thread.

1. I agree 100% with Blockheads' comments regarding how they went to all the trouble to match my name and e-mail address.

2. I know I am not the only one dissatisfied with the speed at Aces Gold...just read the various threads over the course of the football season. I did call their techs once, early in the season after posting a similar thread about their lack of speed and, even though professional and courteous, he was of no help.

How many times am I supposed to call your techs so as not to be labeled as "refusing to work with us?" Seems to me, once is one time too many when it is YOUR issue.

3. Regarding the offer to close my account, I had pending wagers through MNF...I don't anymore but, I've been busy today.

HAMHOG...of course I suffered no financial or punitive damage, but I do feel it inappropriate for a book to "look up" who I am based solely on the fact that I truthfully pointed out their site is slow.

My options are: a) keep my mouth shut b) call their tech (AGAIN) c) use this form as intended to document the site is slow.

Keep in mind, THEIR SITE IS SLOW per their own comment
"As was noted on numerous sites this past 4 weekends, our ISP was the reason for the slow access to our website."

Maybe instead of going to the trouble of finding out who I was and firing off an e-mail, an apology in the public thread would have been more appropriate...I think so.

Aces Gold has a different marketing strategy.

[This message has been edited by azbob (edited 10-24-2000).]

[zippy]

I’m not satisfied at all by Aces Gold’s behavior in this matter and the tone of their posts in this thread, for several reasons.

1. Oversensitivity to criticism: azbob simply made a point about Aces Gold having a website that is disappointingly slow during crunchtime.

Is the claim false? Apparently not, given that it has been corroborated by other posters, and even Aces doesn’t claim they are without problems in this area.

Is it irrelevant or unimportant? No. Many Bettorsworld readers use website speed and efficiency as one of their factors in choosing a book. Of course it is relevant and important that one be able to access one’s wagering account and place a bet during crunchtime.

Was it expressed in an abusive, rude, excessive manner? Not at all. It was a reasonable point made in a civil fashion.

Yet, Aces Gold chose to respond in a petulant, childish manner, feigning surprise that a customer who was dissatisfied in any way with them would not immediately close his account and leave them alone.

I know their “If you don’t like it, why don’t you just get out?” question was more rhetorical or sarcastic than genuine, but it is not as if the answer is not apparent. There is no logical contradiction between offering a point of criticism about a book and choosing to continue to do business with that book. Every book, every business, has good points and bad points. A customer making a decision of where to play takes into account all these factors. He does not automatically close his account at the first sign that a book is imperfect.

I hope Aces Gold will calm down and rethink this idea of responding to criticism with an insulting smart ass attitude. And no, the alternative need not be to refuse to respond at all. The alternative is to respond professionally.

2. Implication that criticism should not be aired publicly: Aces Gold is upset that azbob chose to make his points about their website speed in a public forum rather than to communicate them privately to Aces Gold.

I don’t think this point is entirely without merit. Certainly we have seen cases of posters jumping the gun and posting a rant against a book on some matter that likely could have been easily resolved if they had just called the book and worked it out privately with them.

However, it does not follow from this that as a general rule customers should never criticize a business unless and until they have exhausted all possible remedies through dealing directly with that business. Especially if it is done in a civil and balanced fashion as azbob has, a customer has every right to share his opinions about a book with others, through this forum or otherwise.

For that matter, from what he’s said, it sounds like azbob has communicated quite a bit with them privately concerning these matters.

The issue of how fast the websites are for the various sportsbooks is one of general interest to the readers of Bettorsworld. It is not some purely private trifling dispute between Aces Gold and one specific customer.

Isn’t sharing such information one of the main purposes of this forum? I hope Aces Gold will learn to take the good with the bad. I have read many, many things on this forum about Aces Gold, and the overwhelming impression I have received—-especially prior to this matter in question—-is very positive. Aces Gold should welcome a full and free airing of all customer reactions to them, good and bad. If they run their business responsibly and efficiently-—which the evidence mostly supports that they do-—then they should be confident that the overall effect of welcoming everyone speaking their mind will be beneficial for them.

If I post a question on this forum, like, “Hey guys, I’m considering signing on with these sportsbooks. Can anybody tell me how fast and efficient their websites are during crunchtime?” I would like to think people would feel free to respond, and not to treat it as a private matter between each individual customer and their book.

I currently have accounts with multiple books, to many of which I am fairly new. I intend to write reviews shortly on one or more of them. I suspect I will have more positive than negative to say, but that’s because the books I’m dealing with have earned more praise than criticism. It certainly won’t be because I recognize some alleged obligation not to offer critical points publicly.

3. Privacy concerns: I think Aces Gold’s more recent responses make things a little bit clearer, but in all honesty, in my mind, there is still a certain amount of creepiness about the whole thing.

By e-mailing azbob the way they did, not only does that show that they know he is azbob, it also shows that they want him to know that they know. Granted, there is no explicit threat made, but the very idea of this “Hey, don’t think we don’t know what you’re saying about us on Bettorsworld!” sort of thing is definitely chilling.

I’ve had sportsbooks take an educated guess who I am from things I’ve said about them in my posts, but it never bothered me because it was never done in an accusatory fashion, and I haven’t gone out of my way to disguise my posts so as not to be identifiable anyway. But a lot of people do have concerns about their anonymity, and I’m sure they would not appreciate a book calling them out about a post they made here.

I also found Aces Gold’s earlier responses on this point to be disappointingly evasive. They were asked a simple question, and they danced around much too long before answering it.

People were concerned how they had ascertained which of their customers posted here as “azbob.” Sorry, but “He gave us that information when he opened his account” is a lot of baloney. I’ve filled out many sportsbook application forms, and I remember spaces to fill in for “name,” “phone number,” etc., but I’ve certainly never seen a space for “username on Bettorsworld.”

Eventually, Aces Gold got around to stating that “azbob” is part of his e-mail address that he submitted to them when he opened the account, and thus that there was no particular skulduggery involved in discovering which of their customers he was. Too bad they didn’t just say that the first time they were asked, instead of playing dumb and giving non-responsive answers.

[Side question for azbob: Did you forget that you had given them an e-mail address with “azbob” in it? Given what they’ve said, now I’m puzzled as to how you could not know how they identified you.]

In conclusion, I’m sure Aces Gold is a solid book in most respects, including those that count most. But they could stand to take a good hard look at the way they’ve mishandled this matter. I hope that posters will continue to feel free to post all relevant information—good and bad—about the books they have experience with. And I hope that when those comments are critical that the books will take that as an opportunity to see where they could stand to improve, rather than getting mad at the messenger.

[azbob]

One final note about Aces "blaming the victim" approach to customer service.

In their rant against me, they state that I would not work with them by calling their techs.

They also note,

2. Slow access to AcesGold website

"As was noted on numerous sites this past 4 weekends, our ISP was the reason for the slow access to our website...Our ISP also said that with our enormous player growth, it was quite difficult to keep up with us, where more bandwidth may not simply be the answer."

My question is, if I did take the time to call your techs (again) what exactly, given your own explanation of your problems, would I have accomplished other than wasting my time?

I think the Aces answer to this question clarifies their attitude. Here's their own words:

"Specifically a customer who simple REFUSES to work with us to resolve his connection issues, or any issues for that matter."

They acknowledge their own problem over four weeks then chide me for not resolving MY connection issue. duh????

zippy...based on feedback here, my first thought was that they matched up my Greeley address. I didn't think about, until after the fact, some flunkie reading through all of the e-mail addresses to come up with a match. Creative to be sure but also creepy.



[This message has been edited by azbob (edited 10-24-2000).]

[freak]

Lip service comes in all forms....

My one word description....

B I Z A R R E

Bob

Take your $$$ and run !!!!!!

[Socceroo]

Zippy – I have just finished reading your post (I started at about 7.30PM EST). What a fantastic piece of work,it was a pleasure to read. There were a few things bugging me too about this but you have just brought them all out into the open. It was well balanced, reasoned and above all thorough. I am sometimes suspicious about the agenda’s of some posters on this site but your post left me in no doubt about your integrity.

With guys like you and Sportshobby on the case sportsbooks will realise that there is no place to hide and the truth will have to come out, and also that silence or fudging of issues will just not wash.

I posted in a previous thread about quality of staff being a major handicap to books trying to deal with these types of issues I just don’t think that they have the quality to be able to deal with them. Aces Gold have proved that point admirably as you rightly said. Thanks for showing them how a professional response SHOULD be written. (credit though to Aces for actually taking the time to respond even if they were piss poor attempts).

I think the sportsbooks that you play with will spot you easily; you’re the one that returns an 18 page application form!!

Thanks and Keep up the good work.