sportsbetting.com - a Built-in Excuse not to Pay

[TrendSetter]

intheknow, does all that nice stuff give the book a license to steal?

[Mojo]

Intheknow, What book do you run? The term "loser" as in does'nt win at sports betting. Some of these books are in businss to take everybody's money. They make it clear in their rules, "winners not allowed". These books should be avoided on principal alone.

[intheknow]

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't agree with that BS policy at all. There will be winners in every book. Any fool who kicks out someone because they have won doesn't get the chance to win the money back. I guess I should have started a new thread to write my whinings about this. If you can research my name you will see I have always promoted take a bet, pay the bet, period, even if it's a bad line. It's our responsability to put up the right lines. I don't reserve the right to determine what is or is not a bad line.
I just started my rant against classifying all players who do not win as LOSERS. Then I moved into whining about service and creating an entertainment experience for players. Now every other sales call we get now starts off with "what kind of bonus's you offering".

Any Joe Blow can open up with a Don Best and 40% sign-up bonuses.

Oh well

[bgeorgia]

From Sportsbetting Management


Over the past several days we have followed this posting with some
disappointment. I would like to make everyone aware that we have NEVER
refused (for any reason) to pay 100% of a players winnings.

Just as all NYSE listed casino companies ban certain players for certain
reasons, we reserve the right to restrict "professionals" from accessing our
services. Our lines are not made to weigh up against "professionals" and we
cannot afford their action.

We do not define a "professional" as a winner or even big winner, but rather
as one of the VERY FEW people who have made true careers out of sports
gambling.

Implying that we would use this clause to get out of paying our winners is
completely ridiculous.

Our intentions from the beginning have been to provide you with great lines,
great service and assurance that you will be paid.

If anyone would like to discuss this in more detail directly with us please
send an email to: comments@sportsbetting.com
-------------------

[Ronbets]

To Sportsbetting Mgmt,

Thank you for responding to our criticism. However, I too am disappointed in your manner of response. This is a public forum and precedence has shown that other shops "take off the gloves" and participate directly vs intermediary.

This is a sensitive issue and you should welcome to clear the air via civil forum Q & A. Until then, a shadow of doubt will always linger.

[sportshobby]

I wouldn't have any problem with a sportsbook banning "certain" players, for whatever reason they see fit.

But the blanket statement that is there should worry anyone with plans to win.

[bgeorgia]

A friendly response from Sportsbetting



To insure that there is no misunderstanding between our intentions and how
some may understand our rules, we have modified the section in question to
read as follows:

"Professional sports gamblers (Wise Guys) are not allowed access to the
services provided by SPORTSBETTING.COM. If a suspected professional sports
gambler does open an account at SPORTSBETTING.COM, SPORTSBETTING.COM
reserves the right to cancel this account at any time without notice."

We reiterate that we never intended to cancel an account simply because the
player 'wins too much'. This rule is written in conjunction with our policy
on betting limits to discourage professional gamblers from accessing the
services of our site.

We hope this helps clear the air and remove anyone's doubts.

------------

[Chilly]

Maybe I am lost, but how does this clear up the situation? "Suspected"? No evidence necessary? I don't think the concerns that were raised here are adressed by the new language.

If we accept your right to limit the players in your book to a certain type, the problems I see are: (1) how to determine a professional player, and (2) what you do about it. Based on your clause, if I win money in the long run because indeed I support myself through sports wagering, it looks like I am a professional. In other words, if I CAN win, I can (will?) be kicked out. In short, you reserve the right to kick out winners, take their money, no questions asked, and that is the cause for alarm.

I suggest that you come up with a more stringent definition of a "professional", which won't please everyone, but at least makes it painfully clear what will not be tolerated (i.e., someone whose average wager is five dimes or more, and who always beats the line moves, and takes us for $100,000 a month [and I don't really mean for this to be taken literally]). As of now, it looks like winning will not be tolerated, so I will stay away as well.

Chilly

[J. R. Miller]

In response to our article at ProfessionalGambler.com Terry at Sportsbetting.com has rewritten the offending rule being discussed on this forum.

Here is the text of our article, along with the exchange between Terry and I:

It was brought to our attention on September 9th, 2000, that Sportsbetting.com (a sportbook licensed in Antigua) had a very interesting rule buried in their "terms of service" at http://www.sportsbetting.com/terms.html. Get a load of this:

"Professional sports gamblers (Wise Guys) are not allowed membership at SPORTSBETTING.COM. If a suspected professional sports gambler does open an account at SPORTSBETTING.COM, SPORTSBETTING.COM reserves the right to 1) cancel this account at any time without notice, and 2) refund any initial deposits made by the professional sports gambler into the SPORTSBETTING.COM account as SPORTSBETTING.COM's only liability towards any and all winnings the professional sports gambler may have achieved.

...A "suspected" professional? A "suspected" Wise Guy? This stipulation means, of course, that Sportsbetting.com does not have to pay anyone any winnings at all. It doesn't really matter whether or not you are a professional gambler. All they have to do is declare they "suspect" you are a professional gambler. Then they can keep whatever you won.

This kind of outrageous crap is one of the reasons we cannot recommend any sportbooks licensed by the Antiguan government. We recommend you stay away from sportbooks in tiny Carribean countries. We recommend only sportbooks overseen by England or Australia or other established and stable governments.

If you were a crook who wanted to make a fast fortune and retire, how about opening a sportbook that's not well regulated by the local government, sneaking the above paragraph into your "terms and conditions" and then refusing to pay any winners at all...because you "suspect" anybody that wins is a professional gambler?

In a nutshell, do NOT open an account at Sportsbetting.com if you expect to win anything. - J. R. Miller

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NOTE: We received this response two days later from "Terry" at Sportsbetting.com....

09/11/00: Someone recently told me about your editorial about our site. After reading your site he asked why he should open an account with us. Here is what I told him,
"First -- we have NEVER declined to pay 100% of players winnings.
Why you ask do we have this rule? Just as a NYSE listed casino companies ban players for different reasons, we reserve this right against professionals since our line is not made to weigh up against this type of person. We can't afford and don't want their action.
A "wise guy" or professional sports gambler is in no way to be confused with a winner or even a big winner. These two players are in no way related.
"Dodgy" is not a word which has any relevance to our rule.
Why should you join our sport book? Well you seem to be intelligent and well informed. We can offer you a great site, great promotions and great customer service. We'll pay you every time and do our best to make you happy.
Please let us know if we can help further."
I think your recommendations should be more thoroughly researched before you make blanket recommendations which are not based on fact. - Terry

Our Response (via email): We will post your letter on our "Letters" page and also at the bottom of the article.
I'm not here to make enemies of you or anyone else, and we want to be fair. Any response you have will be prominently displayed at our website. If your rule says something you did not intend, perhaps you should re-write it or edit it, to make it more clear. As your rule stands, I am sorry, but we feel it is in our subscribers' best interest to take their business elsewhere.
Have you considered betting limits to protect yourself from "chronic winners"? - J. R. Miller

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NOTE: We received this response from Terry at Sportsbetting.com the next morning...
09/12/00: JR: In response to your concerns I am sending the following. Please post the entire message on your site. - Terry

1) We have modified the rules so that there is no future misunderstanding as to the intentions of our restrictions. The new rule reads,
"Professional sports gamblers (Wise Guys) are not allowed access to the services provided by SPORTSBETTING.COM. If a suspected professional sports gambler does open an account at SPORTSBETTING.COM, SPORTSBETTING.COM reserves the right to cancel this account at any time without notice."
2) I would like to make everyone aware that we have NEVER refused (for any reason) to pay 100% of a player's winnings.
Just as all NYSE listed casino companies ban certain players for certain reasons, we reserve the right to restrict "professionals" from accessing our services. Our lines are not made to weigh up against "professionals" and we cannot afford their action.
We do not define a "professional" as a winner or even big winner, but rather as one of the VERY FEW people who have made true careers out of sports gambling."
Implying that we would use this clause to get out of paying our winners is unfair and baseless.
Our intentions from the beginning have been to provide you with great lines, great service and assurance that you will be paid.
If anyone would like to discuss this in more detail directly with us please send an email to: comments@sportsbetting.com
3) To answer your question about betting limits. Our betting maximim on a straight wager since the day we opened is a relatively low US $1,100.
We reiterate that we never intended to cancel an account simply because the player 'wins too much'. This rule is written in conjunction with our policy on betting limits to discourage professional gamblers from accessing the services of our site.
We hope this helps clear the air and remove anyone's doubts.

Our Response (via email): Terry: We have posted your message on our "Letters" page and added it to our article. Thank you for your quick response, which is in everyone's best interest. It is reassuring to see you have re-written the rule, although we are still bothered by what might be your terms of cancellation. We are assuming the best - which, in many cases can be a naive thing to do - by assuming you mean the "cancelled" bettor receives all the monies due him to date. If you could clear up that one point in the phraseology of your rule, we would be a whole lot more comfortable recommending your sportbook. - J. R. Miller

[Underdog7]

Nobody could solve this whole mess except for sportsbetting itself. Further explanations are needed to clarify the confusion. My question is plain and simple. How would you guys differentiate a WISE GUY or a PROFESSIONAL GAMBLE from those players who win big?

[Ronbets]

THANK YOU J.R.MILLER FOR YOUR HELP AND INTERVENTION!

The ? I'd like answered is this one. If I'm a value player on credit and am consistantly playing against professional moves, can I stiff the Book on the same disclaimer?

[underdog]

sportbetting.com,

What cryteria do you use to determine if the player is a professional?

[intheknow]

I'm sorry about your situation and understand your reasoning behind trying to limit access of prefessionals into your book. But if you take a wager, you should pay that wager. There is no excuse for stiffing a player period! Kick them out after you pay them. The word will get around, there are plenty of other books who will take their action

[underdog]

"We do not define a "professional" as a winner or even big winner, but rather as one of the VERY FEW people who have made true careers out of sports gambling."

Sportbetting.com,

HOW DO YOU DETERMINE IF THE PLAYER IS ONE OF THE VERY FEW TO HAVE MADE A TRUE CAREER OUT OF SPORTS GAMBLING?????