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  • A Fishy Story

    OK, I just got a bizarre phone call from a friend, and I’d like some reactions from you guys.

    My friend is a fairly serious poker player, but has little interest in sports or sports betting. He knows that I bet, and he has on occasion given me some money to bet for him on my picks. But his knowledge of the world of offshore sports betting and such is limited to whatever he happens to have picked up in conversation from me.

    Anyway, he calls me today and tells me that he met a fellow socially within the last month, and that they have seen each other around and gotten to know each other a bit since then. Today the fellow told him that he owns a sports book in Costa Rica. Knowing of my interest in sports betting, my friend questioned him about this at some length.

    Among the things the fellow claimed are that his business is primarily credit. (He immediately told my friend that he would let me bet a $10,000 line of credit, maximum $1,000 on any one play.) When asked about the legality of what he was doing, he said that the attempt to make it illegal earlier this summer failed, so things were safe for now. I told my friend that the next time he talks to this guy, he should bring up the name Jay Cohen. He said, “Oh, actually he mentioned that name himself. He’s a bookie, right? He said that the problem there was that Cohen was taking bets over the Internet. He said as long as you limit the business to phone wagering, and you just do sports betting instead of ‘virtual casino’ games, then it’s legal.”

    He then told me that he had asked the fellow about a betting syndicate who called themselves the “Poker Players.” (I had mentioned the Pokers in passing to my friend once after I heard about them on Bettorsworld.) He responded that he knew them well, and he proceeded to rattle off all their names. He said he was a runner for them for ten to fifteen years, and that he had made a lot of money by betting his own money on their picks when he placed their wagers, but that he no longer works with them.

    My friend told me the fellow’s name (which I’m not going to mention here). He couldn’t remember the name of the sports book, though he said he could call the guy and find out any time. (He remembered part of the name, but I’m not going to mention that here either.)

    The way my friend met this fellow and the type of social interaction they’ve had indicates that he is wealthy, or at least that he travels in the social circles of rich people. My friend said that he comes across as an intelligent, sane, sensible, respectable person, and that there is nothing suspicious or overly slick about his manner.

    My reaction was that the whole story is ridiculous. Supposedly he’s an American owner of an offshore sportsbook who has chosen to remain physically in the United States, and to tell his story and give his name to someone he just recently met. Plus he offers to extend $10,000 of credit to a total stranger, sight unseen. I told my friend, “I wouldn’t touch this guy and his alleged sports book with a ten foot pole.”

    Your reaction?

  • #2
    Zippy, I'd have the same reaction. This book is treading on the edge of the law.

    If this guy had an illegal book in the states, I'd expect basically the same response you got (extend the limit to anyone who is well known and respected by a known person). This is the way these guys build and extend their business.

    But to live in the states and promote an offshore credit business that one owns is crazy.

    Comment


    • #3
      Zippy, not fishy at all. Sounds very plausible. In fact, I know at least two offshore books that perfectly fit the profile.

      Comment


      • #4
        For what it's worth, I found out the name of the sportsbook in question. I'm assuming it would not be cool to state it. I don't think they'd want it publicized that they are offering $10,000 credit lines to strangers.

        I ran a search for them on Bettorsworld and one other site. They are not on any preferred list nor are they on any derogatory list. I found a few posts that mention them, more positive than negative.

        I then found their website. Interestingly, much of what I found there is not consistent with what this guy told my friend.

        He said they only take wagers by phone; the website makes it sound like you can place sports wagers online, though I don't see it stated clearly. He said they don't have an online casino; they do. He said they are in Costa Rica; the website doesn't say where they are, though the bank wires go to a bank in New York, and deposits by mail go to Florida.

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        • #5
          You can pass it on that of the substantive counts brought against me only three involved the internet, the other four involved the telephone.

          I would avoid any book with any US presence, particularly accepting money in Florida.

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          • #6
            It also sounds like he is not even the owner but just an agent. He doesn't know that they have an online casino???

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            • #7
              Zippy, the situation you mention isn't all that uncommon. There are a few books out there, that have been around offshore for a few years, but that have never gone commercial. Look at Pelican/Jazz for example.

              The thing is, if they are reputable, someone will be able to vouch for them. Whether that be another book that knows of them, or someone else in the biz, a player, etc.etc.

              Of course I'd be leary about their banking procedures. They SHOULD operate just like any other offshore, otherwise, they're asking for trouble.

              Also keep in mind that there were other books that were caught up in the same criminal complaints as JC, and some of those were phone only books. It should also be noted that Casino games weren't a part of those complaints, and the wire act has not been used ahainst any online CASINOS to this point, as far as I know.

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              • #8
                Thanks for the comments, sportshobby, reno, Jay [good luck on the appeal Jay!], and Jeff. Situations like this really are new to me, and that’s why I seek the feedback of Bettorsworld.

                I thought it sounded dubious that phone vs. Internet, or casino vs. no casino would make a difference legally.

                This sportsbook “owner” seems a little too eager to establish credit accounts. In talking with my friend further, it turns out the guy was trying to, in effect, recruit him as an agent. He told him that if I or anyone else that he brings aboard ends up a net loser at the end of the year, that he will kick back 10% of the losses to him. My friend is even less familiar with these matters than I am (he didn’t even know the term “agent” in this context when I mentioned it to him), and he had never heard of such an arrangement. He was a little indignant and told him, “I don’t want to benefit from my friend losing. If you want to do something like that, just refund 10% of his losses directly back to him; I don’t want a cut of that.”

                I’m not seriously considering betting with this guy at this time. There are plenty of reputable books where I would feel more comfortable, in spite of the fact that I have to post up with them. My friend and I did agree, though, that this fellow might be a good contact for the future, that he might have some interesting information and stories to share about this world, and that it’s possible we could get to know him well enough to eventually feel differently about doing business with him. (My friend and I live a thousand miles apart currently, so I likely would never meet this fellow in person unless I happened to be visiting my friend in the future and he introduced us.)

                Am I correct that it’s best not to mention the sportsbook by name? I’m not sure what gambling etiquette requires in a situation like this, but I figured when in doubt, it’s always safer to say too little rather than too much. Maybe instead of posting it on the forum, I could e-mail you Jeff, just out of curiosity if you know anything about this outfit or its ownership.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Zippy I believe you are missing something.Technically who cares if the book is legit,if you win your agent is responsible for your money and if you lose the agent is responsible to the book,therefore your only concern is the legitamacy of the guy your friend has become acquainted with.10 dime credit limit is about normal to any serious (investigated)gambler.The agent keeps 25% of your losses..

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                  • #10
                    irish: The guy hasn’t identified himself as an agent (he claims to be an owner) and he hasn’t said anything about taking personal responsibility for debts if the place stiffs me. However, you’re right. If he’s legit and honorable, then presumably he’d cover what’s owed to me if there’s a problem later. But that’s just it. My friend barely knows him and I don’t know him at all. Plus he’s saying things about the industry and about this sportsbook itself that seem to just be false, which doesn’t inspire confidence. I don’t have enough evidence to trust him. I know I’m an honest person and will pay if I lose; he, and the sportsbook he represents, only might be honest and intend to pay if they lose. It’s an unequal risk in that sense. (To be fair to the guy, my friend says he gets a good feeling from him, and that if he were going to bet instead of me, he’d likely be willing to bet with this guy on credit.)

                    I don’t doubt that you’re right when you say that $10,000 is not an unusually high credit line. But as you say, that’s for “serious (investigated) gambler(s))”. Yesterday was the first time my friend ever talked to this guy at length (they had met awhile back, but their only contact had been to say hello and exchange pleasantries and small talk when they happened to run into each other occasionally in group social settings). So he really doesn’t know my friend well at all. I admit that I might be totally wrong about this and maybe reputable sportsbooks or agents extend credit extremely liberally like this, but it sure seems to me like this guy has done insufficient investigation to know that I’m a serious gambler who will pay. All he knows is that I’m the friend of a guy he just met.

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                    • #11
                      Zippy,

                      From your posts you indicated you were a small player? What do you need with a 10 dime line of credit for? Communicate with the agent/owner and set lower settling points. Maybe 3-5 dimes. Take a chance. Give the store a trial run and maybe a positive relationship will develope.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Zippy, lots to be cautious.

                        A.you dont want to get involved in the credit game,you will soon be on a payment plan,goons knocking on your door,etc.

                        B.90% of poker people are coniving low down low life scum,they are always begging for loans and its a miracle if they pay you back.

                        C.How do you know his track record,plus hes an agent,so you now need to sweat 2 people to get paid,the bm and agent.

                        D.agents like to say,Mr.A and Mr.B lossed and arent paying the money they owe,and I cant pay you until they pay me.

                        Dont even think about it.you will regret it.

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