The Capper issue...please read.

[Mr. Humble]

Here are many points none of you guys looked at. And by the way, you guys do sound like some pretty good guys.

1)I have local books and gamble in Vegas all the time. This never happened in Vegas, and the actual Golden rule of gambling is "a bet accepted is a bet".Anyone that argues this isnt an experienced gambler. Fact.

2)How do we know this guy was scamming Olympic. WE DONT. Maybe this guy has a busy job,took a minute to look at bets,bet 2 times on it(not 3)because of max limits. Alot of assumption going on.

3)If Olympic cant control there chances of a past post bet at such a quiet time (early morning)when there is almost no action going on,that scares me. Olympic does sound solid though.

4)There is no way you can guarantee Olympic would have given Capper his money back if he would have lost. The gambling business has been compared to that of a lawyer.

5)What if Capper used all his account to bet this match, and if Olympic was awake,and didnt allow this to happen, he may have wanted to put his money on another bet and won. He now has lost twice. What if this would have been an 'if win bet' and he won his other games. I guarantee they wouldnt have paid. But if one of his other games lost,they would have full right to call it a loss. HUGE disadvantage to bettor.

In closing an accepted bet is a bet. Argue this,you really dont have a clue,or you work for the book.If the guy scammed,it doesnt matter. Gambling is hard enough without worrying about your book sticking to the Golden Rule.

[Dukey]

Mr. Humble,

1) I also believe that a bet is a bet. Once acepted, it should be paid. Has Vegas ever put up a bad line/wrong start time, and what happened? I bet you there would be a riot there if they ever decided not to honour their bets. The offshores do this consistently, but what are we going to do, fly there and complain?

2) We don't. But everybody who past posts is deemed guilty before innocent. Just like mls said,"If I ever ACCIDENTALLY past posted, I'd be lucky if the book didn't throw me out as a crook." The book makes the mistake, and instead of apologizing to the bettors for the inconvenience caused them, would rather accuse everyone of being a crook.

3) These things can be controlled. I believe it was Ayce who said that you could have seen the tennis match live on the internet. I believe the site is wimbledon.com
Books just don't think it is important enough to try to prevent these past posting occurences from happening. All it takes is some guy at Olympic sitting in front of his computer monitoring the posted start times for tennis, and following it live at wimbledon.com, but I bet you even after this Rosset/Haas fiasco, they won't bother to do this. Why should Olympic or any other book do this? They would probably have to hire ONE, maybe TWO employees to prevent this from happening. Too expensive, and besides, they'll just simply cancel bad line/past posted games, anyways.

4) Absolutely. The books will always cancel winning wagers posted against bad lines/wrong start times, but I seriuosly doubt that they always cancel the losing ones. I am still waiting for any poster to tell me that they had a losing wager credited back to their account. Granted, the Bettorsworld populace is small, but I have only heard of bettors' WINNING wagers not getting paid, and never a story of a bettor that got a losing wager credited back to them.

5) Quite possible. The bottom line seems to be that it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the bettor, and not the sportsbook, to ensure that start times/odds are correct. Because should a bettor ever bet these games, whether knowingly or not, the final decision belongs to the sportsbook in handing out whatever ruling they desire.

A bet is a bet. That is too honourable a principle to fathom for many people.

I also agree that INTENTIONALLY past posting, and taking advantage of bad bets is not honourable. But, the bigger problem to me, is the plight of those honest bettors that bet these games. They get screwed because the sportsbook effed up, and where is the honour in that?

Again, does this b.s. of bad lines/wrong start times happen in Vegas? Because if it happens, and as frequently as it seems to happen offshore, with people getting their tickets cancelled left and right, then I will humbly apologize to all the offshore books.

[thedevil]

Dukey,

I've gone back and read every post that you have submitted to BettorsWorld. It's apparent from all your posts that you are quite articulate. It is also apparent that you never give a sportsbook right. I read your posts on the over/under on the Lakers rebounds. I thought the book was right and you were wrong.. However the book gave you back most of your money, but they were still scum. You keep praising Vegas books as if they were some sort of Gods. This couldn't happen here mentality doesn't carry water with me. The Vegas books are a thing of the past. Now they can't carry the jock of some of these offshores. I think it was you that said you would like to visit one of the offshore places.. Get on a plane, most of these guys would love to show you their place. My only response to you, if your not happy betting offshore is open accounts in Vegas or move there. Option 2, stop playing if you feel your going to get cheated.

THE DEVIL

[Dukey]

devil,

If that was your opinion regarding the Lakers over/under situation, then you are entitled to it. There were also some posters that sided with me. I think we could both agree though that it was phrased quite ambiguously, and that there were arguments to be made for both sides.

I was not impressed with the book because Butch over there first tried to convince me that it was a no-brainer that team rebounds would be included, and that it was clearly stated. He then changed his tune, and told me that there was "no room" on the internet site to put a special notation that *team rebounds are included*.

I saw a similar prop:

Total rebounds by Lakers -110
Total points by Rose/Miller -110

I phoned and asked the book whether team rebounds would be included, despite being pretty sure they wouldn't be. The book told me what I had aleady suspected, which was that team rebounds were not included.

I got ALMOST all my money back at Carib, but had to fight tooth and nail, and also put up with a lot of lame excuses before doing so.

I was not praising Vegas books. I was simply asking posters whether Vegas ever made a bad line/wrong start time error, and what happenned? It seems to me that Vegas has never made these errors.

I was there once, seven years ago, and enjoyed myself. The offshore books do a good enough job for me that I don't feel I have to go back there to place my action.

I am simply alerting bettors to the fact that they should take the responsibility amongst themselves to ensure that all posted start times and odds are correct. Even though I adamantly believe that this is a fundamental obligation of the sportsbook, the bettors will save themselves a lot of aggravation if they took this task up themselves.

NEVER BET A BAD LINE OR PAST POST. Chances are that you will get caught, have the bet nullified, and then be labelled a crook by the sportsbook regardless of whether or not you did so knowingly.

You could lose the bet, and chances are, you won't get your money back, or even have any idea that you should have gotten your money back because the book NEVER posts games that they refunded wagers on.

I believe in FULL DISCLOSURE, and when books do not even try to attempt to disclose these games they deemed had off lines or wrong start times, then they are not practicing this fundamental bettor's right.

Don't the car companies alert their buyers of all recalls? Of course they try to hide it for years, until the proper governing bodies crack down on them. But eventually, steps are taken to make sure that all buyers affected are alerted.

So why shouldn't a sportsbook do something similar? If they refund a game, I want to know. I could have possibly been affected. Again, I ask any poster that has had a losing wager refunded to come forward.

I will never get cheated Devil, because I now take it upon myself to make sure that all games that I bet on have the proper start times and odds. Should I see any mistakes, I don't alert the books because I don't feel it should be my responsibility. I also try to confirm sources used for any props that I may bet.

[reno]

One of my favorite quotes is: "Humility (or humbleness) is a strange thing. As soon as you think you have it, you've lost it."

[Hamhog]

Dukey,

When making a play at Olympic via the internet the following disclaimer appears :
"By entering your initials below, you agree to the following:

I am entering my initials on this form as a means of authorization to place this wager and deduct the proper risk amount from my account.

I understand that once I hit submit, this wager is final and changes cannot be made.

Olympic Sports reserves the right to refuse any wager on reasonable grounds.

It seems pretty clear to me that the event being finished for an hour constitutes reasonable grounds for refusing a wager.

The books I have dealt with do not act at all like lawyers. For the most part, they have been very fair. Olympic is one of the best.

[Dukey]

reno,

You seem like a very learned person. I have perused most of your posts, and it seems that you have done a lot of reading in your time.

I was baptized, confirmed, etc..., and was supposed to follow the catholic religion. But I started having my doubts very early in life about catholicism.

I currently consider myself an atheist. Not that I wouldn't want to believe in a God. I mean who wouldn't want to believe in a kind and loving God, and know that heaven is just around the corner when we die, and where our loved ones will be waiting for us.

Death scares me a lot. The meaning of life eludes me. I would very much like to explore other religions, and the meaning of life.

What books have you read regarding the meaning of life that you found quite captivating. Also, what books on religion, the afterlife, etc...., have you found to be fascinating reads?

[Dukey]

hamhog,

Again, I state that I have no problems with books deleting bets that are past posted. Nonetheless, I would still like to see these bad line/wrong start times eliminated because:

a) The honest bettor gets screwed. We all know that there are still some bettors have no idea that the bet that they just made was past posted. Thus, when they win, the fully expect to get paid.

The sportsbook screws up, and the honest bettor pays the price. Hamhog, if you owned a sporstbook, what would you tell these honest bettors?

b) Yes, I have been told that any wagers past posted are refunded, period. But, I don't believe this to be true.

I have never had a losing wager credited back to my account, and I am still waiting for any poster here to tell me that they have had a losing wager credited back to their account.

First of all, the sportsbooks, and most people here have the mentality that ALL past posters, and bad line players, do so intentionally. Guilty before proven innocent.
This kind of mentality brings about an unfounded belief propogated by the sportsbooks that,"since all these people are crooks, then we are justified in cancelling all WINNING TICKETS, and HONOURING LOSING ONES." Why should they refund the losing tickets? The sportsbooks probably feel that these crooks tried to scam them, and it backfired, so why should they return their money?

I simply want to ensure that BOTH SIDES are ALWAYS refunded in regards to these past posted, and bad line games. The only arguments presented for the sporstbooks so far have been,"they are solid, trust me, I know the owners", and,"if you think they are out to cheat you, don't play with them."

[JohnnyDeMarco]

Honest or not honest, that is not the issue here. Gambling software is still in the infant stages here. There is always going to be someway to beat it. If a guy bets on game and it has already started-he is SOL. It doesn't matter whether the software allowed it or not. Even if it was taken over the phone, it should be no bet. I asked two real big guys in NY about this (40 years in the biz each) and they both said "no bet." They both also said that in the old days the guy trying to get away with it-wouldn't be able to get down anywhere after a stunt like that.

[reno]

Dukey, thank you for the compliment. I commend you for being a Truth-seeker. In another BW post pertaining to the novel "The Unbearable Lightness of Being," I posted my recommended spiritual reading list. For your benefit, I'll list it again:

Introductory Books:

Be Here Now--Baba Ram Dass
No Boundary--Ken Wilber
Yoga--Georg Fuerstein
How to Know God--Christopher Isherwood and Swami Prabhananda
Autobiography of a Yogi--Paramahansa Yoganada

Advanced Books:

The Knee of Listening--Adi Da
The Method of the Siddhas--Adi Da
The Teachings of Ramana Maharshi--Arthur Osborne
Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi --Sri Ramana Maharshi
Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind--Suzuki Roshi
The Zen Teaching of Huang Po--John Blofeld
The Triadic Heart of Siva--Paul Muller Ortega
The Doctrine of Vibration--Mark Dyczkowski
First and Last Freedom--J. Krishnamurti
The Cycle of Day and Night--Namkai Norbu
Teachings of Tibetan Yoga--Garma C.C. Chang
The Golden Letters--John Reynolds

[Hamhog]

Dukey,

I have had numerous plays misgraded, both for me and against me. I have never had a problem getting the plays fixed.

You probably won't here from too many past post losing bettors for a couple of reasons:

1) While 95% of all sports bettors are losers, 95% can win with the next days newspaper.

2) Not knowing that you past posted the book, you did not know to look for the refund.

[Dukey]

hamhog,

2) not knowing that you past posted the book, you did not know to look for the refund

That is my point exactly hamhog. Don't bettors have the right to know which games were refunded because of past posting or a bad line?

The books I am with allow me to see all my pending wagers. Any bet cancelled or refunded would be graded a push, and I would be able to clearly see that on my screen. So, I would definitely know of any bet that I had made that lost and was returned to me. And so would most bettors because this is money we are talking about. We all know which bets won, and lost, so we would definitely be aware of any losing wagers that were mysteriously refunded.

Some people here believe that books ALWAYS credit back the losing wagers on bad line/past posted games. I'm happy for them, that they have that much confidence in their book.

But I am a doubting Thomas, and I believe that many people here also have their doubts. I am willing to get berated for expressing my opinion.

I defy any book to come here and post all the games that they felt they had to refund, and the reasons for doing so. This won't happen. Why not?

[SLAM DUNK]

Dukey, I understand your points, however I look at everything from both perspectives,
the books and the players. It is an ugly world out there, and I assure you there are plenty of scam artists out there that will be more than happy to take take advantage of books, any chance they have. It is a clear cut rule, once a game is off it is off. Some books will bend the rule. There have been times that I have made halftime wagers, turned on the game and suddenly 2 minutes have gone by in the 3rd quarter. It was not intentional, just in the process of shopping lines, I got a little behind. In no case win or lose has a book voided a bet, and in no case would I ever call the book and say "gee I think I might have been 2 minutes late on a halftime bet, will you void bet", because it lost.

I understand the pain of someone liking a match, betting the match and winning the match only to find out that the bet was cancelled, because the sports book had the wrong start time up on the match. Capper has been blasted here, but I think it is entirely
possible that his story is very true. Not everyone who makes bets knows when the event will start, and a lot of times bettors will use the book as a reference. That being said, I as a bettor completely understand and accept the rule that if I bet an event even 1 second after it starts it is subject to cancelling. A good book(in my opinion) will look at the circumstance, and not void a bet unless there was a clear cut edge involved(eg ran opening kickoff for a touchdown). In this case, with the event over, there is no way you can say, gee they accepted the bet they should honor it. You also do not know that they did not cancel some losing bets or that there were losing bets to cancel.. It is just speculation by your part. I just do not think too many people bet matches after they start.

My personal stand on books is as follows.
1) They pay.
2) They offer me as many betting options as
possible.
3) They off reasonable limits.
4) They do not boot winners.

From what I have read on these boards, Las Vegas fails miserably on areas 3 and 4. They also are lacking in #2.

If we as players want offshores to continue to offer us all of these betting options we have to be a little bit reasonable in our critique. Why is it in Spiro's best interest to offer a bet on an unpopular sport(betting wise) if he is going to be drilled if he gets the wrong start time. I think a very reasonable rule that we as bettors can live with is, IF YOU BET AN EVENT AFTER IT STARTS YOUR BET IS SUBJECT TO CANCELLATION. I can live with that. I much prefer a book like Olympic, who passes the 4 questions above with flying colors, over many others who might be a little more organized in their start times but fail miserably in other areas.