Book Cancels $20,000 Winning Bet

[Dukey]

mls,

I know what you do and don't believe. But, why don't you answer the real questions?

When a book posts their lines and start times, is it the responsibility of the book or the player to ensure that the lines and start times are correct?

The bettors don't post the lines and starting times for the books, so don't all these problems and complaints originate from the sportsbooks mistakes? Gee, let the sportsbooks keep making mistake after mistake, and let them keep cancelling wagers, thereby taking legitimate winners from honest bettors.

Is it really that hard for a book to ensure that their odds and start times are correct? I could sit in front of my computer, surf the net, and verify all start times and odds posted by any sportsbook. All it takes is time and effort, and a big complaint of mine is that books don't want to take this extra time and effort, which really, I think could be done by one or two guys. Those people who keep excusing the books for these mistakes of carelessness and laziness will only ensure that these mistakes keep repeating themselves over and over again.

What possible justification could a sportsbook have to cancel past posted wagers from honest bettors? Because they don't want to take a possible loss on the game because of their mistake. That's not good enough. Why don't you give me a good reason you could tell someone who accidentally past posted a game, and had their winning wager negated for no fault of their own?


Devil,

I agree with you that there are honest and dishonest sportsbooks and players.

But do the honest players really have to pay for mistakes made on the part of the sportsbook? Sure, the sportsbook will never know who the honest past posters were, and who the dishonest ones were. But, isn't it important to note that the mistake was made BY THE SPORTSBOOK? Is it really okay to absolve the sportsbook of any responsibility for their mistakes every time? Well, when they are allowed to cancel wagers whenever they feel like it, then to me, all they are doing is absolving themselves of any possible negative repercussions that were their fault to begin with.

Sure, I would like to completely trust a sportsbook. But I don't, and they don't trust their clientele either.

If I go through all my losing wagers, and stumble upon one that was past posted, do you think that the book would refund my money without hesitation? I don't think they would even consider it.

All I am saying is that a lot of these mistakes are the fault of the sportsbook. Is it wrong for me to think that they should accept most, if not all the responsibility, for their mistakes?

Sure, go ahead and cancel your mistakes, but please try to do so before the game starts. Why is this not a fair compromise? This way, the bettor cannot feel cheated in any way.

I am sure this happens to many bettors. They place a bet on-line, and they see it on their pending wagers screen. The bet sits there until the actual event has become final. You think you have a bet, but you find out later that the bet was cancelled, removed, whatever... Why can't these bets be cancelled five minutes into the game, during half-time, ....? No, these bets stay active on your pending wager screen until well after the game is over, leaving the bettor to wonder.

I would think myself that the book waited for the outcome of the match before they decided whether to cancel the bet or not. Why shouldn't I? Whenever a player past posts a bet, the book seems to automatically think that a scam took place, so when a player's bet gets cancelled after the game is finished, why can't he think that a scam also took place?

Mistakes stem from the sportsbook. I really believe these mistakes are preventable, but the sportsbooks simply don't do enough to try to eradicate them. The sportsbooks will continue to make mistakes, they will continue to cancel wagers whenever they see fit, and I will just have to accept these facts.

Sportsbooks don't trust the bettors, and the bettors don't trust the sportsbooks. All I am trying to do is try to get sportsbooks to TRY and eliminate their mistakes, and cancel wagers before the actual events. Why is this unreasonable to some people?

[krackman]

I also agree with most posters " Why come on here for the first time under this new name"? Why not use the same name you always have which in turn would lend to your credibility ?
And why not mention the book? This is the only reason players only/sportfanatic came to a settlement with the two bettors that posted it.

[pay2play]

No one's addressing the most pressing question the man is raising: Is his acceptance of the $8200 check an implied settlement? Everything else is philosophy if the deal is done.
It's been a long time since I studied business law, but I believe the answer is yes. I do believe in the book it/pay it philosophy, and also think the book owes the poster the full $20,000. And I understand the man's desire to grab the $8200 before risking angering the BM to the point where he got nothing. But I think it was a mistake. I think legally, by accepting the $8200, you forfeited your further rights in the dispute.
Anyone got Wapner's #? Judge Judy? How about that bald headed boxing ref poker player from Reno?

[Ronbets]

AYCE,

Good observation. I thought only movie stars and Witness Protection members changed their names?

[AYCE]

Stop circling around, please.

If you don't want to answer some simple questions, which are all very reasonable questions, you are just digging a hole for yourself.

And the hole is getting bigger and bigger.

a) So it must be a hockey game or a money line on a NBA game, because football season finished about 5 months already.

b) THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT. As I said earlier, I believe the "bad line" is NOT the only reason that they refused to pay you. In deed, its not even the MAIN reason.

You said you bet the $4000 on a 3 team PARLAYS and the other 2 teams obviously WON.

DID THEY EVER PAY YOU THE AMOUNT THAT YOU WON ON THAT OTHER 2 TEAM (PART OF THE PARLAY)?

If the bad line is the only reason, the book SHOULD AND MUST PAY YOU THE AMOUNT THAT YOU WON ON THE OTHER 2 TEAMS!

If they ddin't pay you, either they riped you off, OR...

Is the $8200 originally in your account or thats the amount that you have negotiated with them or they paid you as part of the winning?

c) Stop fooling around about the limit question. I know different books will have different limits, I know different sports and offers will have different limits, I know sometimes for some big events/big games will have different limits.

BUT I HAVE NEVER HEARD A BOOK WILL HAVE DIFFERENT LIMITS ON THE SAME SPORTS AND THE SAME OFFER ON MONDAY, TUE, WED, THE 1ST WEEK OF THE MONTH, THE LAST WEEK OF THE MONTH, ETC. (Except maybe for football, for some cases and some books, between Tue and Sat or Sun may have different limits, but if thats a football game we are talking about, why would you wait for 5 months?)

Not to mention thats parlay limits!

Give me an example that a book will have different limits for the situation that I have mentioned above, PLEASE.


See, I still have a lots of questions...

[P.R.O]

Everyone in here has banged on about this and that but everyone seems to just be gathering facts.
Although not perfect the following suggestions could be ideas. They go in the books favour but the player still gets paid an amount.
Suggestion 1.

Could the book not pay him his parlay with the selection in question being amended to the "correct" line of -170 or maybe with the book conceding say 20 cents as acknowledgement of the mistake to -150

Suggestion 2.

The selection in question is dropped from the parlay and is paid on the other winners, the same as if the game had pushed.

In my view, the problem is only with that selection, and obviously his other selections taken in the parlay are not in dispute, so why should they be affected.

Just an opinion, and I think that one of the above two suggestions, if implied, would at least have the punter get some money, and also show to people that the book is willing to work, to solve any disputes that may arise.

Opinions appreciated

P.R.O

[Dot Mix]

All the thought and energy put into trying to help you does no one here an iota of good without your revealing the sports book you are having a problem with. You've had much concerned support here, yet you don't care a bit whether some other hapless person who may even be trying to help you get paid could be posting up their own hard earned money with a "bad book". Your own personal agenda is not in the spirit of this BETTORS WORLD forum. Our strength in helping others and helping ourselves is to be honest in our portrayal of the problems and divulge the sportsbook that is causing you the difficulty. You are doing the forum a disservice and and will not ultimately be helping yourself. This forum is to issue warnings, heads-ups and legitimate greviences one is having with a sports book.

You are looking to only protect and garner favorabnle response for yourself. I think no question the book should pay----but I think your being a selfish undeserving jerk by not giving a heads up as to the books name so some other innocent forum member doesn't wind up posting their own funds up while your looking for our vocal support to help you out. Your'e not even giving the sportsbook owner a chance to submit his side of the story.

I think you should be paid every cent owed to you, but until you reveal the sportsbook and some concern for others here you fall under my category of "dirtball"

Dot

[mlbfan]

From thedevil:
I'm not against you. Just want more facts..

Did you make both bets at the same number??

Would the software allow just you to double bang the same parlay???

Did you and your friend start at the same time with this book or did your friend sign up after you noticed the weak lines and couldn't double bang them..

Did you ever have phone conversations with management about your plays prior to this..
Why do you feel you should settle for less then 100% of what your owed..:

My response:
I think I understand your first two questions. The 2 overnight line parlay bets were made as follows:
1st parlay bet: -110 to -110
2nd parlay bet: -120 to -110
Therefore the line in question moved 10 cents after the first bet.

My friend started account about a year after I started my account. The reasons I recommended that he have an account with this book were:

1.) The book offers a greater variety of bets.
2.) The book often has lines that are different from other books.
3.) The book offers overnight lines I felt were beatable.

As I said in previous response to one of your questions: There were no conversations at all with the book about my betting overnight lines or betting too much for any bets.

Your question about why I feel I should settle for less than 100% of what is owed was answered previously in a different question that AYCE had asked. I will repeat the answer in full below:

When I won the $4200 on the 4 bets where I had a well-defined advantaged, at the time I did not think I had done anything wrong. These 2 years have been my first experience with on-line books and quite possibly my last. I was of the thinking that if a book offers a line and you bet it and they don't cancel it before the game is played then it has to be honored. Other than these 4 winning bets there were only 4 other bets made where I had a well-defined advantage and those 4 lost. After those losses the book actually sent a post on their web site saying that individuals were taking advantage of parlays on dependent events and thanks to these individuals, the games involved would not be offered anymore in any parlays. Presumably their software didn't have the capability to specify which games these parlays could be involved with. I feel this is an important point because that tells me they were aware of my bets and they didn't address it with me at all. There was no contact made. It led me to believe that they played under the same rules I thought I was playing under: If a bet is booked and the game is started it will be honored. If they were not going to be playing by these rules then that would have been the time to inform me so. Not doing so clearly sent to me the wrong message. At this point, my thinking has changed as to whether placing bets on dependent parlays is wrong. I now realize that on-line books are not necessarily the same as Vegas casinos and I'm now open to the thinking that it is not the right thing to do. Although these bets broke no rules and although these bets simply turn the tables on the book for a change and give the player a well-defined advantage over the books, I now see these type of bets as being unethical and would not do this in the future. For that reason as part of a settlement I offered to subtract the net winnings on these bets of $4200 from the $20,000 that I strongly feel is rightly owed to me.

From AYCE:
You said you bet the $4000 on a 3 team PARLAYS and the other 2 teams obviously WON. DID THEY EVER PAY YOU THE AMOUNT THAT YOU WON ON THAT OTHER 2 TEAM (PART OF THE PARLAY)?

If the bad line is the only reason, the book SHOULD AND MUST PAY YOU THE AMOUNT THAT YOU WON ON THE OTHER 2 TEAMS!

If they ddin't pay you, either they riped you off, OR...

Is the $8200 originally in your account or thats the amount that you have negotiated with them or they paid you as part of the winning?

My response:
AYCE allow me to clarify for you. There were no 3-team parlays involved. There were two 2-team parlays:
1st parlay bet: -110 to -110 (ie. Team A to Team B)
2nd parlay bet: -120 to -110 (ie. Team A to Team C)

All three teams won and both of these parlays resulted in the book grading them as wins and my account was credited with over $20,000 in winnings. Later they deducted this same $20,000 from my account. Therefore, no I was not paid based on some reduced calculation where I had say $4000 on Team B and $4000 on Team C.

I would think as a starting point in these negotiations that the book would concede that I should be at least paid based on the reduced calculation where I had say $4000 on Team B and $4000 on Team C. However, the book has not even conceded that.

The $8200 was the original balance before I made the bets on the overnight lines. It is not an amount I negotiated for because there were no negotiations.

From Dot Mix:
I think you should be paid every cent owed to you, but until you reveal the sportsbook and some concern for others here you fall under my category of "dirtball".

I'm sorry that you feel that I'm a "dirtball". I don't think giving the name of the book is the right thing to do at this point. The book is one with a good reputation and I had no problems with the way I was handled up until this point over a 2-year period. I think someone there messed up big time and I'm being the fall guy. The way they have handled this one situation is possibly a one-time mistake where they have exercised extremely poor judgment and I feel that it is right to give them a chance to see what others in the betting public feel. After all, they welcomed me to post here because they were confident that there would be overwhelming response in the book's favor. Once they see that there is not overwhelming response in their favor they deserve a chance to correct any wrongdoing. I do appreciate all the posts.

mlbfan

[AussieVamp2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dukey:
Is it really that hard for a book to ensure that their odds and start times are correct? I could sit in front of my computer, surf the net, and verify all start times and odds posted by any sportsbook.

--- Yes, it is hard sometimes. No, it is not necessarily true that you could get this information all the time from the internet. You would have to be on the phone (and possibly in multiple languages) If you are just thinking about the NBA, etc. Pretty easy - but tennis sets for example? A lot different story there.

All it takes is time and effort, and a big complaint of mine is that books don't want to take this extra time and effort, which really, I think could be done by one or two guys.

-- Not just them. Any bloody call centre, basically. Cater to averages, not extremes.

[AussieVamp2]

and this also raises another question :- with the number of clever yank punters out there, scammers or otherwise

How many qualified American-style sports bookmakers are there? Are there enough for the number of sportsbooks around now? How many give it up to become punters themselves? How hard is it for one to teach another, and how long does it take?

[AYCE]

So, thats exactly what I'm expecting.

THEY DIDN'T PAY YOU AT ALL ON THE OTHER PART OF THE PARLAY.

THERE WERE OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING ELSE THAN THE "BAD LINE".

And those maybe the real reasons that they refused to pay you.

BTW, if you think you should at least got paid on the $4000 on team B and team C, why don't you fight for that? Like I said earlier, if the "bad line" is the only reason in this case, the book had no ground whatsoever NOT paying you on the other part of the parlay.

Either they riped you off or there are something about the "$4000 limit" or something else.

So, whatever it should be, the simple thing is,

a) Give us the damn name of the book so everyone can know what "actually" their overnight limit should be or maybe we can hear the other side of the story.

b) Give us the damn name of team A, B, C.

Simple enough?

Actually, I think I have a clue on what book it is, according to your "cheating parlays" that you have made several months ago and with those limits. There are only very few names out there that will have such poor software problems.

But of course its still your choice to tell us the name.

[Dot Mix]

mlbfan

For some people ACTION SPORTS had an OK reputation until the **** hit the fan when one of our posters was stiffed out of 8 grand. Everything was going along "peachy-keen" for many until it was brought to the attention that something was beginning to smell rotten with ACTION SPORTS. Their name was announced here by a regular poster and no doubt many people who may of been taken by a sportsbook in trouble were saved money that they would most certainly been bilked out of.

When a book goes deep-six it just doesn't happen overnite. There are warning signs. I would construe your situation as representing a very possible warning sign of a book in trouble.

By revealing pay problems or sudden changes in attitude or demeanor to this forum pressure is brought upon the sports book to resololve or arbitrate the situation. In the meantime-------people here do not unwittingly post up with a potential sinking ship!! Thats what the most important facet of this forum is about. Helping each other.

Paul Revere provided a similar service over 200 years ago when he made his famous ride through the Boston countryside. He yelled out a warning loud and clear to the colonists so they knew what was going on. He became a hero for doing so.

Dot

[greg]

very early lines big limits perhaps olympic. Last year i banged a bad line at carib told a friend he banged it and emailed carib to inform them of bad hoops line and they cancelled both are bets.Thats on a nickel limit. I have been under the impression that one should notify the book after playing a bad line.

[DoggieStyle]

Greg isn't making the bet telling the book they have a bad line? If an idiot bookie wants to throw up openers without checking them he should be drilled out of business. A slimy book could do this on purpose (bad lines) and make a big score with these wagers. That's why it is wrong to claim THEY BET BAD LINES. YOU CAN DOUBLE AND TRIPLE CHECK YOUR LINES BEFORE YOU OPEN. There's no excuse!

A bum down on Freemont Street is going to check the lines in a casino before he lets his friend bet 1 DOLLAR with him in a friendly bet. Why can't these so-called bookies check their lines?

If this book has players laying -7 when the other books have -6.5 or even -6, isn't this playing into a bad line? It is O.K. for a player to lay a bad line isn't it? Books everyone say's are great try to get their non-pro players to lay bad numbers all the time, They think this makes them sharp. They laugh at their accounts.

Dot Mix is right. You want people to listen to your claim. Then we don't like what we hear and really don't want any part of this book, but we don't know what book it is and you are protecting them? What's your point?

[greg]

ds. lets say incorrect line a mistake line a typo or whatever. Myself i say wager the crap out of it however if the line was a "mistake" my understanding is that the casino has legit authority to void the play BEFORE it goes,this understanding is often implied in the casinos rules. Obviously carib should have honored my low limit wager thanked me and changed the line, and fixed theproblem. Since this gives casinos BIG POWER one can only inform others if it is abused. Yeah this should pay this guy off, feel free to ban him and fix the problem with lines and or lower the overnight limits. This dude is a junior member posting here for the sole reason of getting paid he probably has never posted here before and will not post much after his problem is resolved. The sportsbook name is being withheld to use as leverage toward a settlement if they settle we wont find out this guy is simply pimping this forum to get money from thus book. Seems like something like this happened not too long ago here also.