TO BE OR NOT TO BE

[AYCE]

Hartley,

you are wrong, again.

Not every place has a dime line on baseball.

Last year Carib has a 20 cents line (for all those people cried out loud last summer, I believe a lot of them did come back to Carib in the football season to take advantage of their -102, So?) and several other books used 15 cents line.

Correct me if I'm wrong, even your favourite, Itops had used a 15 cents line for quite a while.

However, you have a point here.

Offering 2 diiferent kind of lines with 2 different kind of vig to 2 different kind of customers is such a dump thing as a marketing strategy.

What is this look like, a Holiday Inn? Regular customer discount?

[ShiftySheik]

Great move WWTS. I wouldn't be surprised if other top books follow your lead. I hate to see discrimination against the wiseguys though. The followers and scalpers had a great season last year thanks to them. You might slow them down but eventually they'll get to you through new beards.

[Hartley]

Shifty how is that a great move? It makes no difference to me because I don't have an account at WWTS nor do I have any intentions of opening one, but I don't understand how pissing off potential new clients by offering them worse lines that "the regulars" is a good marketing move.

When I did my MBA, I majored in marketing and in none of the classes do I recall hearing in the courses that to create awareness and attract new customers, you should charge the potential new customers more and make it clear that they aren't as worthy as the old customers.

[thedevil]

IMHO WWTS is only the first to announce keeping the dime line for their regular clients and any new sign-ups get the 20c line. Soon you will start to see more and more books going this route.

In this manner they will be able to illiminate the dime line slowly over a period of time without allianating their basic customer base.

Again in my opinion the books won't be signing up another books clients, won't be causing friction between each other and eventually will eliminate the dime line.

WWTS has a few thousand regular customers. Do you think he needs to take a few hundred customers from other books and lose their respect?

I think this is a better way for the books to get rid of the dime line, slowly and over a period of time. Mark my words next year the 10c line will be like a dinosour.

THE DEVIL

[Boomer]

I applaud WWTS for their outstanding loyalty toward their existing client base. It is impossible to please all of the people all of the time and I certainly wish other sportsbooks that are considering abandoning the ten cent line would follow their lead as in my opinion, it is definitely the most intelligent.

It also rewards loyalty from existing customers. Other sportsbooks that complain that they can't retain their client base, WWTS is showing you how!!! Learn from them and follow their lead!

[randyrohm]

Unbelievably I have never had an account at WWTS. They were in a tough spot and made the right choice IMO. By rewarding their loyal customers they will be even more loyal and they deserve to be rewarded because it is because of them that WWTS is where they are at. My question would be how do you plan to expand your customer base with these rules. Why would a new player pick WWTS?

[Shawn]

I second what Randyrohm asks.

I've never read anything but positive things about WWTS ... you must run a fine shop. It's "too bad for me", though, because I won't be grandfathered in on this:

I usually have active accounts at six or seven outs and switch them depending on time of year, customer service, etc. I never got around to opening with WWTS. Now I don't suspect I will: sure they're a quality out as best I can tell, but there are many other B-World outs that will continue to hold the dimeline. (And I can't beat a 20-cent line in bases...call me a loser, but most years I find myself barely past even playing into a dimeline.)

Regrets,
Shawn

[mls]

The goal for most books seems to be break even on baseball and hold your customers until football/basketball.

I doubt WWTS particularly wants new customers for baseball.

When football rolls around I guarantee that WWTS will offer a nice new customer bonus and will get plenty of new customers.

[WWTS Marketing]

I don’t mean to beat a dead horse here, but let me clarify a few points and end this subject. First off we did not have a losing baseball season. Mainly due to our existing customers. We did not make as much profit as we would have liked to, but how many of us do? Our limits will remain five and two unless I need more. Our decision is etched in stone and not debatable. It affects only the wise guys who may boycott us during baseball, but will return for the rest of the card. Let me reiterate, “they need every out that pays” so they need us more than we need them! Regarding beards- some people handicap games, I handicap players, so rest assured, if one does slip through the cracks he wont be there long. The only other group this affects is the players who are not members of WWTS. We choose to deal them “Industry Standards” so as not to undercut other Sports books, so in reality it does not affect them.
Hartley, your decision to never become a member of WWTS must be respected as it is yours, however, it should make this subject, to you, like New Zealand everyone knows it’s there but who gives a damn. I humbly bow to your superior marketing skills, and hope someday to reach your high standards of perfection in this field, but until then, WWTS will just have to continue to grope it’s way through and hope that tomorrow the sun will rise. Thanks for your understanding.

Roger
1 800 238 9987

P.S. Randy, we realize that during Baseball our signups will decrease, however we will be implementing new incentives to try to overcome this situation.

[snarg]

I think Devil is right on the money here.

WTTS has made an intellegent move by dealing the double line, but not a move that I feel will be to the advantage of the long term interests of their clients.

I believe that WTTS (Although I must admit I have no real knowledge of their long term plans) is dealing it existing customers a 10 cent line now to placate them during this baseball season, while it establishes a new client base used to a 20 cent line to increase the power of its position.

Then next season when it switches to a 20 cent line for all its customers and people being dealt the 10 cent line this year complain to them and whine in forums. The 20 cent bettors will not show any solidarity, because they would only be fighting to help others.

That is why I believe that WTTS will not offer the 10 cent line to new sign-ups. They are using a perfect strategy to stop collective action from being effective. Divide the opposition and then deal with each element with strength. If they made the move to a uniform 20 cent line this year, they might be faced with a desertion of current clients and new clients would be slow to fill the void, but next year they will have a mix and be on much stronger ground to make a complete conversion.

I believe if bettors had the foresight to look at there long term interests. The would force shops like WTTS to stay with the 10 cent line for everyone. Of course as Old Man and others have pointed out you might have to search a little harder for the line you want or even take a slightly worse numbers once in a great while, but in the long run everyone would be better off.

It is a classic case of collective action, easy in theory, but hard in practise. To many people are free riders. They want the benefit, but want other to do the work so they defect.

[PEPOCAS]

roger what do you mean you do not want to undercut the other sportsbooks. if the other sportsbooks can't handle a 10 cent line **** them. i am pretty sure this 20 cent line theory was not brought up by wwts, so why do you have to follow the other sportsbooks? is it because you might step on someones toes? do you think bill gates cares feals guilty if he has all the business in his field. he wants do dominate the world. wwts should have the same attitude the hell with the other sportsbooks. if i was wwts i would go to a 9 cents line and pour salt on their wounds. i would grab everbodys business and have so much volume it wouldn't matter what happen. "domination"

[mls]

Roger continues to be a class act (Hartley, with his MBA, failed to understand that this whole matter is not about marketing - it is about compromising between the demands of fellow books - who want a 20 cent line - and WWTS loyal customers - who have always received a dime line).

Personally, I believe the solution is a stroke of genius. Of course, you cannot please everyone - but I cannot imagine another solution appeasing so many, and offending so few.

[Cashman]

Good move WWTS! Guys, the future of 20cent line will be up to you and me, the consumer. If we choose to play baseball at 10cent books predominately and refuse to play at 20cent books then 10cent line will stay. If we choose to play at 20cent books then we will get what we deserve, 20cent baseball lines. Guys, use your heads, play baseball at 10cent books. To do otherwise is like playing with one hand tied behind your back. It is hard enough to win at betting, give yourself the best possible chance.

[AYCE]

Loyalty?

Thats funny.

Are you talking about loyalty in gambling?

Come on!

The main concern for the gamblers to play in a place (other than whether they will get paid) is the lines/odds.

Since WTTS has a high limit as compared to others, they are NOT a "public book" like Itops or Olympic (that could attract more small bettors with maybe only 1 or 2 outs), that means their customers are mostly more educated gamblers and you are talking about LOYALTY here?

Give me a break!

I guess a lot of people that opened an account at Acegold last football season is because they suddenly found "loyalty' over there.

I guess those customers left Carib last baseball season and came back for the -102 in Nov. is also because they sudeenly found their "loyalty" again.

I understand there are books out there don't want to take baseball actions and I don't blame them for switching to 20 cents.

But by saying that we will ONLY deal it to our "old and loyalty" customers as a way to appreciate your business with us before is all about bulls.

To be fair, why not just give all your existing customers a bonus then?

Rogers, I guess you can also say this in the future,

due to too many withdraw requests we have received the last week, we will pay our "old" members first, for "new' members, sorry, please wait another week.

Thank you for your understanding!

[This message has been edited by AYCE (edited 03-21-2000).]

[bsky2]

Roger, The deal with the "cartel" is that WWTS won't actively promote the dime line. What if someone posts up at WWTS and requests a dime line in baseball? Can or will WWTS deal that player the dime line?