Limits- PART TWO

[Jeff]

Wagering on the net is still in it's infancy. Technology won't go backwards. I'm of the opinion that books like WSEX have set the standard for the rest of the industry.

If I wager on a total at over -110 for the limit, the ball is now in the bookmakers court. He can move the number, or not. I can play or pass.

If the bookmaker is telling me that if after I make my 1st limit bet, I can go back to the lines screen, and play again at the NEXT number if the line has moved, than I must also assume that if I go back and check the line, and it's still the same, he has chosen NOT to move it. I should then be able to play it again.

If I can't play it again, the software should come back with a message informing me that I can't play it again. The responsibility should be in the hands of the book and their software here, not the player.

If I log back on and the number is still there, it means the book is willing to take more action at that number. If someone else can come along and play that number, why can't I? What difference does it make whether I play the game, or the next guy plays the game?? Action is action.

Furthermore, so long as we're not talking about playing an obvious line error, if the software accepts my wager, and confirms it, shouldn't the wager stand? If not, at what point should I be told my wager will not be honored because I exceeded the limit on the game? Immediately? As soon as possible? The next day?

For the record, this topic does not involve me personally. Someone made me aware of a situation, and I took an interest in it, because I think it's a valid issue, and one that should be addressed.

There's can't be too many of you out there that DON'T have an opinion on this issue..........let's hear em!!!

[sportsbank]

Jeff,

You stated it perfectly. If a person logs
back on and the numeber is still the same
it obviously means the book is willing
to take more action at the posted number.
Therefore it shouldn't matter if your
making another wager, or the person
after you is. I agree action is action.
If you exceeed your so called limit at
the posted number, and the Bookmaker
changes the number after you place your
wager, you should be able to place another
wager at the new posted number as long as it's within the stated limit. If the book
doesn't want you to play again after you've wagered, you should receive a message stating that your wager is invalid immediately.

[Chillin-the-Most]

Like I said in Part 1, just because the book is willing to take more action at a particulat price doesn't mean he wants it at that price from the same person. PEOPLE MATTER. A play from one guy does not carry the weight as a play from another guy. Limits are set up to reduce risks. Risks plural. They are not there to insure against ONE risk of being too heavy on a side. The limit is a tool of the bookmaker. It is there to say,"Look no matter what, you can have this much, if you want more, ask but do not expect to get it every time."

[Pinnacle Sports]

Jeff,

I do agree with your comments.
After a limit bet has been placed a new number appears and that number is good for new limit bets.
It is our responsibility as the bookmaker to move the number.
Chillin,
People do matter however if a sharp bets a number, the movement of the number should be in tandem with that.
The new number that is put up should be a number that the book does want money on, no matter who plays that number.
If a the same sharp comes in and plays the new number, we should be happy because the whole purpose of putting out numbers that we want money on.
Our job as a book is to be right with our numbers a lot more times than we are wrong.

PINNACLE SPORTS

[JohnnyDeMarco]

I agree with Chillin the Most. A limit is a tool that can be used for many reasons. Obviously if a guy plays at one store only and has a dime limit that forces him to play more games and we all know that means death. Also a limit limits a books exposure on one game. Lets face it, if you didn't have some limits some smart guy like Bill Gates could come in and double up until he killed you.

[Ronbets]

Jeff,

We are working under the assumption that the store we are playing is good sized and reputable.

This is a continual market and prices are adjusted accordingly. The example used by Chillin is fine for a private or a smaller operation guard dogging every play. The proper tool for any bookmaker in this situation is to move the line. If you are overwhelmed by a certain player, your in over your head. When I buy tech stocks on the NASDQ and want to purchase more later, oh you get the idea.

Like Segundo said, this is a sign of weakness. I wouldnt play there. I dont have time to negotiate amounts 5 mintes to post.

[Jeff]

Chillin.....

I agree that people matter, no doubt, and I agree that limits are a tool.

A tool for the bookmaker. That is really the main point here. The "limit" in this case, is not being used properly.

The limit prevents someone who matters from loading up on the posted number. If it's a dime on totals, the sharpest of the sharp can come in and play that total for the limit. The bookmaker can then move the number, using the limit as a tool. If someone makes a play that doesn't "matter", the book can sit still.

The point I was trying to make above, is that if the number hasn't been moved, the BM is willing to take another limit bet at the posted number. It should make no difference if I'm sharp, or can't tie my shoes, because the number is there, and is going to be played anyways.

The problem in this case, is that this software doesn't allow the BM to monitor each individual play. It allows the BM to monitor total action wagered. So, in this case, the BM doesn't know who is playing what.

In this case, it's not the bookmakers fault, it's the softwares.

I would recommend that they check out WSEX, Sportingbet, and others, and attempt to make some fixes to the existing software. It can be done, and should be done, to protect both the players and the books.

Hey, what happens if the book drops it's limits, say towards the end of baseball season. Is the player suppossed to go into the rules and check the limits each day?

If they cut their limits in half, and you come in and make plays on a total equivelent to what the limits were all season, the software will accept your wagers because that's the way the software works. Would it then be ok for the book to say hey, sorry, you exceeded our new limits, only half your bet counts?

The best software out there has taken all of this into consideration, to prevent scenarios like this.

My main point here, is that if the software accepts the bet, the bet should stand and be honored. Am I wrong to think that way?

[thedevil]

Jeff,

We need you to clarify if this bet was made online or at the call center. Most probably if this was a large store you made this wager on line. In a larger store at the call center clerks call out the larger plays. The man running the front hears the play being called out and can react. He either moves the game or stands pat. At that kind of store you should be able to call back and bet the max. again and again and again whether or not they moved the line.If not then they are wrong.

However, on line, the bets aren't called out and the front never hears about the play. Yes it shows up in his chart, but he usually never knows who made the play. Was it one max. play or three squares betting 3 and 4 dollar plays.

One software manufacturer is working on a printout so as the plays are made all online plays can also be seen.

That's the main reason why most stores take much bigger hits at the call center vs. online.

Ronbets. If my scenerio is correct it doesn't show weakness, it shows smarts.

THE DEVIL

[Jeff]

The wager was online.....again, you're right about how the plays come in and the BM not being able to monitor individual plays........however the technolgy of the new millenium is fantastic, and can do remarkable things. Safeguards can be built into the software to protect the books.

Here's the point....a book like wsex CAN monitor an indivduals play, and either accept or decline a wager. The kicker here, is that WSEX was one of the very 1st online books. If they can do it, there's no excuse for any other book not being able to do it, in this day and age.

[Cons]

LOL, I posted about this not that long ago! I agrued that if a number is out there, and I have already bet the limit, then why shouldn't I be allowed to bet more if the book is willing to take more action at the same number! IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO MAKES THE PLAY IF THE BOOK WANTS MORE ACTION AT THE NUMBER GIVEN.

That's a fact. If a store changes its prices, it still sells to anyone willing to buy. It's the same way with sportsbooks. I know of places that will let you bet the limit every five minutes. If the number is still the same, you're free to fire away as often as you want. If the number stays the same you can bet 100x the limit if that's what you want. It does not matter who plays. If I want action then I'll take it from anyone. What difference does it make? Get real!

[Jeff]

Cons:

You make a great point about playing every 5 minutes. That is one of many safeguards that can be used by the books, and it isn't hard to do.

[Cons]

Jeff, I agree. It simply defies logic to not accept business from one person but gladly accept it from the next at the very same number. Money is money. Thankfully the world's largest bookmaking organisations feel the same way. One will let you bet the limit every five minutes. The other (second largest worldwide) will even let you bet the limit online as often as you want. That only given then 15-20 seconds to react each time.

Overall I agree that books should have limits, but these limits should be time-based. The limit is only there to protect books from getting blasted at a particular number, without having enough time for reflex movement and adjusting the line. But once the line has changed (or remained the same at the bookmakers discretion), there is no logical reason in the world to stop ANYONE form betting that number again. I think a five-minute rule is fair, and only the silly books have themselves to blame if they complain about turnover. If you won't take my money and you simply wait for someone else's, then it's no wonder that your illogical "rules" will not generate the turnover potential that is out there. Plain and simple.

[Chillin-the-Most]

This is my point.
Player gets to choose which game, side or total, that he wants and how much he wants to bet.
ADVANTAGE - PLAYER
House gets to set limits.
ADVANTAGE - HOUSE
Now which one of these advantages is greater? Well then you have to go into how much juice is the book charging and is the limit a soft or hard cap.
I personally feel(and deal) that the cap should be a hard cap. Whatever I post as a limit is ALL the player should expect to get down on a position. Now with that being said limits are like laws and laws are made to be broken. In other words, I will ALWAYS try to be fair and let the player get down as much as he wants.
Rich

[Jeff]

Chillin,

Fair enough. However, one fact remains.

If you hire a clerk, and the cler allows me to exceed my limit, you honor the bet.

If you're answering the phones yourself, and you mistakenly allow me to exceed my limit, you honor the bet.

If your SOFTWARE allows me to exceed the limit, you should honor the bet.

If the above criteria can't be met by the software, it should be spelled out so as there can be absolutely no confusion.

[Chillin-the-Most]

Yeah Jeff,
I agree. There is no reason these days for software to not keep up with the competition. A few years ago was different. Some software did not look up pending wagers to see if you already had action on a position. But like you said, if its gonna be that way it HAS TO BE POSTED and agreed to.
Rich